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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 8:12:18 GMT -8
Hey guys,
I know there have been multiple threads on these two issues but I figured I'd ask again because I'm too lazy to go through everything. Anyway, I'm starting a new campaign this week and I want to run a sandbox style game that is heavily gritty. By this, I mean I want them to worry about money and food and sleeping. I've tried to run a gritty game in the past but it turned into a heroic style game.
Any tips on running both a sandbox game AND a gritty game would be greatly appreciated.
Game On
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Post by jazzisblues on Jun 4, 2012 12:14:13 GMT -8
The two actually don't have anything to do with each other. I, first, want to reiterate that in my mind a sandbox has to have toys for them to play with. So you make a game that they can do what they want and they can drive the story but that there are things going on that they might choose to get involved in or not as they prefer, and if they decide to say, "Fuck all that plot shit going on we're building a fucking strip joint," be prepared to go with it. Now as far as gritty is concerned I have a few recommendations: - Death is real and there are no take backsies. Be prepared to kill a few characters before this point gets through to them.
- Consequences are real and painful. Piss off the crime lord and he sends someone to do really unpleasant things to your family.
- No matter how good they are, they never have enough money or resources, nor do they ever have the best of anything. This can be tricky because you want the bad guys to have really spiffy scary weapons and when the bad guys inevitably go down those toys now become the property of the pc's. What you can do is make ammunition unavailable. Oh gee you got an MP38 too bad you don't have any ammunition for it.
- Thematically and tonally things are generically dark with the occasional splash of light and color just to remind them how dark and forbidding their existence is.
Just a few ideas to get things rolling. Cheers, JiB
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2012 12:39:46 GMT -8
Believe me killing players and keeping consequences has never been a problem at all. Thanks a lot, any tips on running Sandbox games
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Post by Stu Venable on Jun 4, 2012 12:44:42 GMT -8
If you want them to worry about food, money and sleeping, you have to be willing to keep track of that stuff (or enforce them keeping track of it).
My long-running GURPS Fantasy game was like this.
We kept close account of the money the party had, earned and/or "found."
I provided them the base costs for rooms when they inquired at each establishment. I had also figured out the costs for meals -- from a loaf of stale bread from the general store to a fine roast with greens, potatoes and wine at the local tavern.
If they got in a fight, and their armor got damaged, I had to come up with the cost to have a local smith repair it.
The key is this: if you want them to worry about it, you have to make sure they're always thinking about it.
Keep the starting cash low -- maybe enough for a week or two room and board. Make sure they pay for EVERYTHING. If they're high-class and wealthy, make sure they're paying for the good stuff.
Don't forget their horses -- they have to be stabled, fed and groomed.
If you remain persnickety about money, they'll start to think about it without realizing it. I had a player with a fairly powerful mage who was miserly. He would sleep in the stables with the horses because it was much cheaper than a room.
It's a lot of work, but once the precedent is set the players will likely fall into line.
And once you've established it, don't spoil it with treasure inflation.
My old party would strip old armor, weapons, shoes, everything off of fallen foes (and fallen companions), because it all added up, and once they got to the city there was a constant drain on their wallets every day they were in town.
Keep close track of food too. If they run out of rations on the road, they'll have to hunt or gather food -- and that will slow their rate of travel -- meaning they'll be travelling for more days...
It helps if you're using a system that will reinforce what you're trying to do. Having rules for starving, working on 1/2 rations, dehydration, armor damage, etc. will only help you make that stuf a worry for the party.
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julien
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Post by julien on Jun 4, 2012 14:59:06 GMT -8
When you say sandbox and gritty I immediatly think about a thieves or beggar's guild game.
Of players are new recruits or independants, they have to take care of themselves, finding whatever they need to survive on the streets. That's the sandbox part.
One think I'd do is to take starvation and disease into account. If all they can find is stagnant water and leftovers behind the inn, they could get sick ...
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jun 4, 2012 17:48:26 GMT -8
The two actually don't have anything to do with each other. What's that JiB? Are you trying to tell me that sand is not gritty? Heh. Seriously though, all the points above are really good stuff. This probably goes without saying, but first I would make it clear to your players that this will be a gritty, street level game. There's nothing worse than the players expecting one thing out of a game and the GM expecting another. That'll kill your game quick. I think it's also worth pointing out that every choice should have a consequence, not only the "bad" or "hard" ones. I forget where I read this (maybe it was in the Monsterhearts game), but a good rule of thumb is that "happiness is a zero-sum game". Meaning that for someone to be happy or successful, someone else has to be denied of what they want or need. There are no "easy" choices. My buddy and I have been talking about the TV show Friday Night Lights recently (which I think is an awesome show and has a lot of applications for RPGs in both characters and situations), and there are tons of great "hard choices" to look at there for inspiration. Not necessarily setting (since I doubt your game will be about a high school football team), but just the types of problems that you can throw at the PCs. For example, in one episode the coach has to decide who'll be the starting quarterback before a really tough game. On one side is the senior who's been QB for three years, has done everything that's ever been asked of him, is respected by and knows the team well, yet is at best an average player that will probably get steamrolled by the opposing team resulting in a loss. On the other side is a brand new freshman whom the coach doesn't know that well yet and who doesn't know the team, but is probably the most talented player in the entire state and will almost certainly win the game. Who will he choose? Is rewarding the senior for his three years of hard work worth probably losing the game and putting the coach's job in jeopardy? Will starting the freshman demoralize the former QB and team to the point where they fall apart and don't win the game? Regardless of who he choses, someone will be pissed off and angry at him. Happiness is a zero-sum game.
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Post by jazzisblues on Jun 5, 2012 6:12:14 GMT -8
Excellent points Hyve.
JiB
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Jun 5, 2012 11:34:12 GMT -8
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Post by daeglan on Jun 5, 2012 22:39:56 GMT -8
If you have a laptop. Set up a spreadsheet with each PC's money. You could probably steal a check register template to do it. But keep a running tally on money, ammo, food etc. Use it to keep them honest. Cause if you let them do all the management on their own they will be tempted to fudge here and there. And yeah what Jib said. Set up the major players in the world. give them goals. have them perform actions to accomplish those goals. Those NPCs will do their actions regardless of whether the PCs interact with them or not. They will react to what the PCs do. And at one time their was an article on Treasure Tables about having other friends not in the game "play" one of the major players. IE you could ask JiB to play NPC A. and after each session you tell JiB This is what is happening in the world. What do you do. Kind of like the old Play by Email Games. Then you could have Stu play NPC B and so on. The advantage to this is the NPCs suddenly have more dimension and will behave differently because they won't be "Metagaming" and will be different people. www.treasuretables.org/files/Evil-Overlords-TT006free.pdfDownload this PDF it is the article I was talking about.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 6, 2012 6:31:59 GMT -8
1) I think we'll be able to help you if we know system, and some setting details if you know those.
2) Start small. Map out the immediate surroundings, the first two levels of the dungeon, a few encounters, a basic encounter table. Otherwise, you're going to burn yourself out of new and interesting ideas.
3) Keep it organic. Add slowly to the sandbox as new ideas suggest themselves. If a player wonders "We need steel plate armor, but the village blacksmith can't make it. I wonder if there are dwarves nearby." That's about when you should look at expanding the sandbox map to include the nearby dwarven hold. Too bad the hold is under siege by orcs every month but winter...
4) Take Advantage of Emergent Ideas. If an enemy escapes them, or is exceptionally annoying to them, make that guy the bad guy. In my current fantasy sandbox, the players betrayed a wizard. Well, you can be sure that guy was actually a spy for a neighboring kingdom and has a huge grudge-on for them now. He's actually helping the Orcs they're fighting by bolstering their numbers with undead troops.
5) Be willing to take on some of the book keeping burden. If you want every ration to count, you need to be willing to have figured out everything that their enemies have beforehand. You can be sure they'll be prying candle holders off the wall to sell for scrap metal in short order, because they're desperate for the cash.
6) Emphasize the grittiness. They're not just stopped by bandits. They're stopped by some really dirty peasants, who look like they're starving, armed with fire-hardened wood spears. If the privileged mobile class of 'adventurers' is poor, just imagine how awful life must be for the lower class? Likewise, if they want to be taken seriously by the upper classes, then they have to spend money like it.
7) Schedule. If you know that the baron of Rollingrock will invade Highhold come september, when he has the troops, it doesn't matter that your players were fucking around fifty miles north of Highhold for four months. They show up in Rollingrock in october, and suddenly its under new management. The world goes on without them. I find it best to set up a master timeline with dates when things happen. As the players influence events, you change the future plans of NPCs.
That's all the advice that sprays out of my head - more than I would have figured. Guess I should make a blog post...
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Post by jazzisblues on Jun 6, 2012 6:40:53 GMT -8
If you have a laptop. Set up a spreadsheet with each PC's money. You could probably steal a check register template to do it. But keep a running tally on money, ammo, food etc. Use it to keep them honest. Cause if you let them do all the management on their own they will be tempted to fudge here and there. And yeah what Jib said. Set up the major players in the world. give them goals. have them perform actions to accomplish those goals. Those NPCs will do their actions regardless of whether the PCs interact with them or not. They will react to what the PCs do. And at one time their was an article on Treasure Tables about having other friends not in the game "play" one of the major players. IE you could ask JiB to play NPC A. and after each session you tell JiB This is what is happening in the world. What do you do. Kind of like the old Play by Email Games. Then you could have Stu play NPC B and so on. The advantage to this is the NPCs suddenly have more dimension and will behave differently because they won't be "Metagaming" and will be different people. www.treasuretables.org/files/Evil-Overlords-TT006free.pdfDownload this PDF it is the article I was talking about. That might well be one of the very best ideas I've heard in a long time. JiB
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Post by daeglan on Jun 7, 2012 11:29:13 GMT -8
I thought you would approve
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2012 22:35:44 GMT -8
regarding money: I disagree. Sure making them watch their wallets and going hungry at times is gritty but it isn't the end all. A made man clawing his way up the ladder will have money, women and toys, but the world he lives in is nothing but grit, because all the toys are just part of the facade. There is always someone looking to get even. Some up and comer that wants his place. Some boss afraid he's getting to big for his boots. Grit is when he has to enforce some family rules and start hacking off fingers in the back room of some goomba's apartment while his kids are in the next room crying and his wife is just trying to keep them quiet.
Grit is life. Looking for love, being rejected, cheated on, used, abused. It's "great, I've made it! Now what?" Its battle scars; getting your eye taken out, losing a finger, a leg, a lung. Its suffering the aftermaths; My bones always start hurting before it rains, I hate my prosthetic leg, The evil priest did heal me but now I hear his gods voice taunting me at night-I think I am going crazy. Great I've been bitten by a radioactive spider and have all this power-but I'm impotent or the venom is slowly killing me or I have cancer due to the radiation.
Grit is just that crap has consequences.
If you off an entire village of orcs but the children, one of them might remember you and decide they want to wear your face. villains have familes and friends too. I wouldn't suggest letting everyone who has a beef with what happened know who did it, but what kind of RPing would take place if the PC got involved with the otherwise wonderful younger sister of a major villain the PC just offed. The PC and the sister hit it off and eventually he learns that she's in town to avenge her brother's death.
If you break the law, the police might come after you and throw you in jail.
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Post by HourEleven on Jun 16, 2012 7:02:28 GMT -8
Its battle scars; getting your eye taken out, losing a finger, a leg, a lung. Its suffering the aftermaths; Grit is just that crap has consequences. villains have familes and friends too. If you break the law, the police might come after you and throw you in jail. I fully agree with these 4 points. Grit isn't the gun fight with the bad guy, it's when the bad guy you shot isn't dead yet - he's crying on the floor clutching the picture of his wife and child in his bloody fist. Do you leave and let him bleed out? Finish him off? It's the moment when you realize that only you knew the guy you killed was the bad guy, publicly he was a saint - making you the bad guy.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 16, 2012 21:26:53 GMT -8
Alright so I figure I should let you guys in on what's happened so far. First off, thanks for all the tips, it's gone a long way. I ran this game with D&D Next which, while is a sketchy idea, is a great way to get a deep test of gold amounts, power levels, etc. Each player chose one of the pre-gens and came up with their own back stories based off of what was on the sheet. Isedar Brighthand, the Dwarf Cleric of Moradin, fought in the war which took place several months back and lost most of his friends to a group of Goblins, giving his character the compunction to actively go after every goblin he thinks may be there. Oroda, the Dwarf Fighter, also fought in the war but then went back home to mine dirt for local farms. During this it was attacked by bandits and a lot of his friends also died, forcing him to feel the urge to protect his fellow dwarfs. These two work well together and, while not a lot has happened, they have gotten to the point where they decided to dig a snow cave for a home rather than buy a room at the inn and stole food from several farms to keep their funds for more important things like armor and weapon repairs. Thanks so much guys and I'll keep the updates coming if it's desired. (THE LIST OF EVENTS IS ATTACHED BELOW) Attachments:
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