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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 24, 2012 0:19:26 GMT -8
I strongly feel this needs to happen on so many, many levels. www.kickstarter.com/projects/andrewpascal/dungeons-and-dragons-a-documentary I encouraged Gary to do something like this, knowing his time was short. Let your light shine indeed! I hope everyone, D&D lovers and haters, can get on board with this. This could be beneficial and cathartic for the whole industry and the hobby it serves.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 24, 2012 1:27:22 GMT -8
I'm checking my budget as we type . . . Yeah I don't really that Pathfinder book this month
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Sept 3, 2012 22:34:34 GMT -8
I am real sorry this is not getting more love. I know the hipsters like to preach occult knowledge and ooze avant-garde attitude, hanging a kick me sign on Gygax and uplifting the guy who left his work in a forgotten shed, which was then auctioned off after his death as an after thought, but I recall it was the efforts of Gygax that made the name Arneson known in the first place. The name most people recall for good reason. This documentary will actually help you enjoy the Reaper Minis because there is a compelling story behind how such things even came to be in the first place. But you won't win any hipster points, true. Still I thnk this is a worthy project that does not seem to get the minimal funding it deserves. Paizo chips in to The Gamers but WotC does nothing tangible for this project. If I sound a little harsh, even bitter, it is because I am dealing with hipster douche bags at the moment as a look at my recent posts will confirm. I am even considering putting away my hobby indefinitely because of the amount of recruitment effort I put in after 2+ years just does not seem to pay off. And, regardless if you like AD&D or Gygax as a person even, this story needs to be told. Your minis... not so much. Please spare a dime for this. I am going to listen to the "ink" this is kickstarter is getting from Tome Show
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 4, 2012 0:48:24 GMT -8
I am going to listen to the "ink" this is kickstarter is getting from Tome ShowWhat are they say on the Tome Show? and yeah I agree this is a proper documentary about the birth and early development of the hobby not about Gary Gygax personally. I find it odd that few people can spare any money for this . . . The same people that complain that gamers are so misunderstood by the general public at large. This documentary is about how our hobby is the basis for so many things we take for granted on popular culture . . . Like WoW and Skyrim . . . and how very few people actually got rich from it but they continued anyway. Hells Bells it's just plain interesting . . .
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Sept 4, 2012 1:45:42 GMT -8
The public relations on the Tome Show didn't say very much aside from the fact that there are logistics involved with acquiring interviews (with guys who are getting "Advanced" in years) that requires money and that network newsreel from back in the day costs $100 a second.
The impression of these guys is clearly one of rough, amicable authenticity. They need a workable approach to companies like Blizzard for financial capital. I am disappointed with the response from the RPG community on this one. It has gotten allot of ink and good will press coverage. I am not sure I could have done any better - and suspect they are getting publicity support from a Chicago pro.
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 4, 2012 4:05:52 GMT -8
Maybe some people are afraid that some sacred cows will be taken to slaughter? There's a lot of misunderstanding about the history of the hobby . . . One of the players in the group I game with actually said "there's actually such a thing as a Gygax? I thought it was a prank from way back?". I was sort of dumbfounded . . . It was bit like saying 'there's such a thing as a Morse, Edison, Bell, Tesla, Tolkien, Verne or H G Wells?' (especially when the person concerned is a self professed RPG hobby geek and a pathfinder fiend). For this reason alone I think this documentary, for the 40th anniversary, needs to be supported. It's that or let the goons that have run so called investigative documentaries in the past flex their muscles again and take their geriatric dogs of fear, misinformation and scaremongering out for a stroll again . . .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2012 13:54:58 GMT -8
I don't think the problem has anything to do with sacred cows being slaughtered or the idea of hipster gamers, and more the fact that the average player these days really doesn't care about the history. Its not that its to cool for them and more that it predates them by so many years that it doesn't matter. They care about the game they are playing now, about the adventures they are having, and the stories they are telling. The guy who created D&D is a distant memory that most of them could care less about. The history of TSR, a company that no longer exists, is likewise something that has no effect on them and thus is meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
Other then myself no one in my gaming group has ever played anything actually developed by Gygax. Half the players I know are like the person you mentioned, they've heard the name Gygax but don't know who he was nor do they really care. Is it an interesting story, yes, its one full of drama and big dreams that have started a hobby that has grown and evolved far beyond anything Gygax and Arneson could have ever imagined. But at the same time this is a story that no one outside the hobby is likely to care about to begin with, its not going to change peoples perception of the hobby because its focused on a different era, it has no effect on the current generation beyond an education on the history.
I threw a few bucks at it simply because I'm a history buff, but there are plenty of other options out there for interviews and information on the early days that I don't see this as something that we need, just something that might be nice to have out there. Its a niche product that has failed to find its niche, it happens. Perhaps the creators will manage to find another source of capital to fund this project, but honestly I don't think the demand is great enough and this kickstarter seems to prove that.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Sept 4, 2012 21:57:21 GMT -8
Ultimately, you are right, tentagil. Still, I am disappointed this rather humble goal is beyond the reach for us Grognards - if indeed only Grognards will support it. But that's my personal response to the problem you've stated. It sums WotC in that category of non-support. I don't think the problem has anything to do with sacred cows being slaughtered or the idea of hipster gamers, and more the fact that the average player these days really doesn't care about the history. Its not that its to cool for them and more that it predates them by so many years that it doesn't matter. They care about the game they are playing now, about the adventures they are having, and the stories they are telling. The guy who created D&D is a distant memory that most of them could care less about. The history of TSR, a company that no longer exists, is likewise something that has no effect on them and thus is meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Other then myself no one in my gaming group has ever played anything actually developed by Gygax. Half the players I know are like the person you mentioned, they've heard the name Gygax but don't know who he was nor do they really care. Is it an interesting story, yes, its one full of drama and big dreams that have started a hobby that has grown and evolved far beyond anything Gygax and Arneson could have ever imagined. But at the same time this is a story that no one outside the hobby is likely to care about to begin with, its not going to change peoples perception of the hobby because its focused on a different era, it has no effect on the current generation beyond an education on the history. I threw a few bucks at it simply because I'm a history buff, but there are plenty of other options out there for interviews and information on the early days that I don't see this as something that we need, just something that might be nice to have out there. Its a niche product that has failed to find its niche, it happens. Perhaps the creators will manage to find another source of capital to fund this project, but honestly I don't think the demand is great enough and this kickstarter seems to prove that.
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 5, 2012 5:28:52 GMT -8
I think you're right too however the sacred cows I was referring to were ones related to IP and invention and myth making. The best explanation is to use an analogy . . . M Jackson owned the Beatles back catalogue but any documentary about the Beatles rarely made mention of this - because the Beatles and their music were documented history. WoTC has developed an IP it purchased and, over time, development has become synonymous with invention. Again it'd be like MJ taking samples off the Beatles and using it in something new and claiming credit for the sample because he owns the IP. WoTC has funded other projects but not this one?? Especially when any gaming related project is niche by virtue of the target audience. As CC says, I'd have thought fellow grognards would have put in more than they have. I did because I too like history and enjoy a good documentary and this would be one I'm actually invested in being interested in. Such is life . . .
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Sept 5, 2012 5:49:10 GMT -8
It would also be a way to promote the hobby outside of our shrinking community. That's self-evident. I mean, everybody got that message from community, right? Everyone was upset about the D&D movie for good reason articulated on many forums here as well, people not in the hobby pick up on messages from within the hobby,... and the documentaries that made us look collectively stupid: everyone understood that.
So it goes without saying this is something positive for the hobby. It's about big business, big business being this hobby being legitimate. I do not need to soapbox it.
Certainly my group in Poland wouldn't give a shit about this.
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Post by malifer on Sept 5, 2012 5:52:00 GMT -8
I'm going to be a bit of a pessimist and say that the kickstarter has little to offer.
Similar to the idea that a lot gamers don't know who Gygax was or care. A documentary does nothing for their game.
That bones kickstarter started gaining more and more steam not because it was awesome, but because you got two hundred and something minis for $100 bucks. In the end people weren't backing an awesome product as much as getting a good deal.
This one gets you a digital copy of a movie for $25. Which you can't use in your game.
I do think this is a cool idea and I would have like to see it.
For added Geek Points I once stood behind Gygax in line at the Post Office. This was about 10 years ago when he was teaching game design at for profit college in Orlando.
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 5, 2012 6:14:50 GMT -8
LOL - "game design for profit"
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Post by Stu Venable on Sept 5, 2012 8:36:26 GMT -8
Isn't this what Kickstarter is for? A way to gauge interest without risking the capital to produce it and THEN find out whether or not it'll sell?
Think of it this way: most players don't give a wit about the hobby. They just want to have their character do cool stuff. GMs (I'm generalizing, I know) tend to be the blog readers, podcast listeners, etc. And it's not all GMs, only some of them have meta-interests outside of their own game and game prep.
From that subset there is a group of people who are interested in the history of the hobby. Again, a subset of a subset of a subset. We're not talking about a lot of people now.
That doesn't mean the movie wouldn't be of interest to the hobby in general or that it shouldn't be made, but there is only a small number of people who are going to see enough value in it to kick in.
If someone was interested in the history of the hobby, they could get Designers and Dragons, which covers the entire hobby, not just DnD.
It still might fund, though, since most kickstarters get increased contributions as they approach their deadline.
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 5, 2012 10:25:05 GMT -8
It still might fund, though, since most kickstarters get increased contributions as they approach their deadline. That'd be nice . . . Just because I'm a sucker for an interesting documentary (yep all those history ones and astrophysics ones etc . . . Mind you we're spoilt for choice for interesting documentaries in the UK because of the likes of the BBC and Channel 4) (OMG I think that means I'm officially a grumpy old man now)
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Sept 5, 2012 12:22:47 GMT -8
True enough Stu. I am just disappointed in the lack of wherewithal this is attracting.
I am all for Gary getting his story told, on camera with the faces speaking the words. I would like to see Lorraine Williams give her account, as I would Tracy Hickman. I would also like to see some celebrities speak, apart form Vin Diesel.
This will do more than 3 D&D films with Jeremy Irons or The Dungeon Masters documentary could ever do to positively promote the hobby and give it legitimacy in the mainstream because the story is compelling. Similarly, the humour of the AD&D episode on Community carried the day with a positive message.
I am really sad that, for this small money, WotC does not make the investment. I can understand the thought leading to a decision not to fund but I am still disappointed on multiple levels.
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