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Post by Kainguru on Sept 21, 2012 9:07:16 GMT -8
To return to the dex bonus and spell casting issue I'd house rule this way: 1) look at the spell and determine if it is likely that the somatic component would require concentration and deliberate application. 2) this determination would be case by case . . . As no two spell casters are the same (If they were the likes of read magic to peruse another spell casters books would be redundant). Though you *could* go through the entire spell list and make your determinations in advance . . . But, hey, I'm lazy that way 3) no somatic component in spell then yep . . . Dex bonus applies 4) if the spell requires somatic commitment then only if the spell is discharged prior to the opportunity to attack (NOT an attack of opportunity) would I then allow the dex bonus to AC. 5) if it's really really tight between spell discharge and the initiative of the attacker, or if it occurs simultaneously, then I'd apply some sort of reflex save to determine if the spell caster can react in time to attempt to avoid the blow after discharging his/her spell . . . Successful save means dex bonus to AC retained
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Sept 21, 2012 9:11:54 GMT -8
I have an eager player for my game tomorrow giving me ulcers on Facebook today . How so ? In Aikido we learn this: In order to practice this peaceful philosophy of self-defence and misdirection you need Uke. Uke in role-playing games terms is the enjoyment one gets by disrupting the shared fantasy at the table. The Rules Lawyer, the 800 pound gorilla lording over in endless coaching the 98 pound weakling, the showboater and all the other forms of table disruption a good GM is suppose to cater tothese days. And yet, there is one way to find the elusive uke at a table: the absolute lack of engrossment at the table.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Sept 21, 2012 9:17:29 GMT -8
To return to the dex bonus and spell casting issue I'd house rule this way: 1) look at the spell and determine if it is likely that the somatic component would require concentration and deliberate application. 2) this determination would be case by case . . . As no two spell casters are the same (If they were the likes of read magic to peruse another spell casters books would be redundant). Though you *could* go through the entire spell list and make your determinations in advance . . . But, hey, I'm lazy that way 3) no somatic component in spell then yep . . . Dex bonus applies 4) if the spell requires somatic commitment then only if the spell is discharged prior to the opportunity to attack (NOT an attack of opportunity) would I then allow the dex bonus to AC. 5) if it's really really tight between spell discharge and the initiative of the attacker, or if it occurs simultaneously, then I'd apply some sort of reflex save to determine if the spell caster can react in time to attempt to avoid the blow after discharging his/her spell . . . Successful save means dex bonus to AC retained All make good sense. The verbal component, vibrating the air with voice, which if you have not done it is choral-related chant, is impossible to do while bouncing the lungs upon your legs. That's why singers stand and sing while dancers lip synch.
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 21, 2012 9:26:30 GMT -8
To return to the dex bonus and spell casting issue I'd house rule this way: 1) look at the spell and determine if it is likely that the somatic component would require concentration and deliberate application. 2) this determination would be case by case . . . As no two spell casters are the same (If they were the likes of read magic to peruse another spell casters books would be redundant). Though you *could* go through the entire spell list and make your determinations in advance . . . But, hey, I'm lazy that way 3) no somatic component in spell then yep . . . Dex bonus applies 4) if the spell requires somatic commitment then only if the spell is discharged prior to the opportunity to attack (NOT an attack of opportunity) would I then allow the dex bonus to AC. 5) if it's really really tight between spell discharge and the initiative of the attacker, or if it occurs simultaneously, then I'd apply some sort of reflex save to determine if the spell caster can react in time to attempt to avoid the blow after discharging his/her spell . . . Successful save means dex bonus to AC retained All make good sense. The verbal component, vibrating the air with voice, which if you have not done it is choral-related chant, is impossible to do while bouncing the lungs upon your legs. That's why singers stand and sing while dancers lip synch. Thus the inclusion of guideline 2 . . . Plus it allows the GM to individualise spell casters and surprise the players by turning their assumptions upside down. Eg: "yes you don't get a dex bonus when you cast this spell because the style of magic you learnt at The Gonad College of Magic doesn't work that way. This wizard, however, trained at the more exclusive Arseburger University for Magikal Studies and they cast this spell in such a way that the retain their dex bonus . . . Maybe you should study there instead next time you level up?"
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Sept 21, 2012 9:37:07 GMT -8
All make good sense. The verbal component, vibrating the air with voice, which if you have not done it is choral-related chant, is impossible to do while bouncing the lungs upon your legs. That's why singers stand and sing while dancers lip synch. Thus the inclusion of guideline 2 . . . Plus it allows the GM to individualise spell casters and surprise the players by turning their assumptions upside down. Eg: "yes you don't get a dex bonus when you cast this spell because the style of magic you learnt at The Gonad College of Magic doesn't work that way. This wizard, however, trained at the more exclusive Arseburger University for Magikal Studies and they cast this spell in such a way that the retain their dex bonus . . . Maybe you should study there instead next time you level up?" Is that Douchiness I smell or.... WaaaaaiiT. That's a Blue Bolt from Heaven!
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Post by jazzisblues on Sept 21, 2012 10:09:06 GMT -8
To return to the dex bonus and spell casting issue I'd house rule this way: 1) look at the spell and determine if it is likely that the somatic component would require concentration and deliberate application. 2) this determination would be case by case . . . As no two spell casters are the same (If they were the likes of read magic to peruse another spell casters books would be redundant). Though you *could* go through the entire spell list and make your determinations in advance . . . But, hey, I'm lazy that way 3) no somatic component in spell then yep . . . Dex bonus applies 4) if the spell requires somatic commitment then only if the spell is discharged prior to the opportunity to attack (NOT an attack of opportunity) would I then allow the dex bonus to AC. 5) if it's really really tight between spell discharge and the initiative of the attacker, or if it occurs simultaneously, then I'd apply some sort of reflex save to determine if the spell caster can react in time to attempt to avoid the blow after discharging his/her spell . . . Successful save means dex bonus to AC retained Actually the book tells whether a spell has verbal, somantic and or material components. What it doesn't say is what they are. JiB
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 21, 2012 10:30:21 GMT -8
To return to the dex bonus and spell casting issue I'd house rule this way: 1) look at the spell and determine if it is likely that the somatic component would require concentration and deliberate application. 2) this determination would be case by case . . . As no two spell casters are the same (If they were the likes of read magic to peruse another spell casters books would be redundant). Though you *could* go through the entire spell list and make your determinations in advance . . . But, hey, I'm lazy that way 3) no somatic component in spell then yep . . . Dex bonus applies 4) if the spell requires somatic commitment then only if the spell is discharged prior to the opportunity to attack (NOT an attack of opportunity) would I then allow the dex bonus to AC. 5) if it's really really tight between spell discharge and the initiative of the attacker, or if it occurs simultaneously, then I'd apply some sort of reflex save to determine if the spell caster can react in time to attempt to avoid the blow after discharging his/her spell . . . Successful save means dex bonus to AC retained Actually the book tells whether a spell has verbal, somantic and or material components. What it doesn't say is what they are. JiB To clarify . . . If it has no somatic component then guideline 3 comes into effect without recourse to guideline 2. Unless, being guidelines, you wish to include some verbal components, like CC suggests, into the consideration (and possibly some material ones as well). As each spell is cast in a combat situation I'd make a ruling and get the character to note it . . . With the caveat that different spell casters, being unique, can (and will) have different rulings. "As it comes up" is simply because I'm lazy and have better things to do than go through the entire spell list and predetermine each spell for each spell caster in the party . . . I really like my bed sometimes and if I did it the hard way I don't think I'd see it very much . . .
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 21, 2012 10:32:59 GMT -8
Thus the inclusion of guideline 2 . . . Plus it allows the GM to individualise spell casters and surprise the players by turning their assumptions upside down. Eg: "yes you don't get a dex bonus when you cast this spell because the style of magic you learnt at The Gonad College of Magic doesn't work that way. This wizard, however, trained at the more exclusive Arseburger University for Magikal Studies and they cast this spell in such a way that the retain their dex bonus . . . Maybe you should study there instead next time you level up?" Is that Douchiness I smell or.... WaaaaaiiT. That's a Blue Bolt from Heaven! I love the smell of douchiness in the morning . . . It smells like? . . . Victory (cue helicopters . . . Ride of the Valkyrie . . . And a bald Marlon Brando)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2012 11:50:01 GMT -8
I must be thinking of 2nd edition then because that sounds about halfway like what I remember. (I first learned to play with a combination of 1E/2E books based on what we could scrape together, so it's likely I've jumbled things up). Once I unpack I'll have to check my D&D 2E books. I remember the 1 minute rounds, but the rules I remember asked for a d10 roll and you acted in the 6-second interval/segment of that minute that the d10 indicated. You might have been playing GM = System, which was totally the fashion in the Guide for DMs in AD&D 1e and completely legitimate in the day. You're unpacking? Moving? Havent even started unpacking yet. We've been under contract with a new construction house since FRIGGIN MAY! Finally this next week we should be closing and moving in...YAY! I totally agree with the sentiment of GM=Judge/Jury/Exocutioner aas far as rules arguments go. Even if the gm is "wrong" just go with it, it's a house rule to keep the game moving. I do this all the time, and then usually fix it later or keep it as a house rule. 99% of being a GM is thinking on the fly, and not every decision made on the fly is correct, but at least gameplay doesnt stop for 5 hours.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2012 11:56:23 GMT -8
To return to the dex bonus and spell casting issue I'd house rule this way: 1) look at the spell and determine if it is likely that the somatic component would require concentration and deliberate application. 2) this determination would be case by case . . . As no two spell casters are the same (If they were the likes of read magic to peruse another spell casters books would be redundant). Though you *could* go through the entire spell list and make your determinations in advance . . . But, hey, I'm lazy that way 3) no somatic component in spell then yep . . . Dex bonus applies 4) if the spell requires somatic commitment then only if the spell is discharged prior to the opportunity to attack (NOT an attack of opportunity) would I then allow the dex bonus to AC. 5) if it's really really tight between spell discharge and the initiative of the attacker, or if it occurs simultaneously, then I'd apply some sort of reflex save to determine if the spell caster can react in time to attempt to avoid the blow after discharging his/her spell . . . Successful save means dex bonus to AC retained All make good sense. The verbal component, vibrating the air with voice, which if you have not done it is choral-related chant, is impossible to do while bouncing the lungs upon your legs. That's why singers stand and sing while dancers lip synch. Not entierly true...while it does make it a TON more difficult, with good training you can chant while moving. Wizards spend a TON of time training themselves for casting, and spells like Magic Missile probably wouldn;t even be in their repertoire if the casting time took too long. The other side of the common-sense of magic coin is this: If a spell exists and isn't useful, why would a wizard ever need to know it. a 3 hour ritual that has the same effect as Expeditious Retreat or Feather Fall would never be cast by a wizard EVER, much like a combat spell that caused a wizard to be horrendously stabbed would never be learned by others either. That's my 2 cents
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Sept 21, 2012 13:30:19 GMT -8
You might have been playing GM = System, which was totally the fashion in the Guide for DMs in AD&D 1e and completely legitimate in the day. You're unpacking? Moving? Havent even started unpacking yet. We've been under contract with a new construction house since FRIGGIN MAY! Finally this next week we should be closing and moving in...YAY! I totally agree with the sentiment of GM=Judge/Jury/Exocutioner aas far as rules arguments go. Even if the gm is "wrong" just go with it, it's a house rule to keep the game moving. I do this all the time, and then usually fix it later or keep it as a house rule. 99% of being a GM is thinking on the fly, and not every decision made on the fly is correct, but at least gameplay doesnt stop for 5 hours. That is the lynchpin supporting my GM = System argument. It not so much about trusting the GM although, back in my day when the guidebooks were scare, those in my company did not distrust the GM. We appreciated him, knowing that without him we would not enjoy the game as we did. Of course, I doubt any of us would have given up our free time to him if we did not trust him. Rather circular argument there. No, the thing about GM = System is having player permission to rule. So many volumes are written about “yes, and” for the players to accomplish anything yet nothing is written by comparison about the same courtesy for the GM by the players. Much more is written about douchey GMs going so far as to christen guidebooks as rulebooks and warn GMs about the perils of GMing and house ruling. Why would anyone be surprised to find that trust no longer inherent to the game? Why would a simple truth like social gestalt need to be even argued it is so obvious? The influence of published rules, weighted above the orality that is the basis of an RPG, is so heavy on the rules providing the system by which enjoyment is had that even a marketing misstep of diluting the brand leads to hobbyists’ edition wars rather than appreciation for the obvious; in the case of Dungeons & Dragons, 6 or more different games exist under that pseudonym? And for what? To satisfy a business model that calls for a new iteration once every 5 years while publishing necessary supplements until the next iteration? Words matter. Printed words matter more. Ironically, increasingly more so in RPGs X-post All make good sense. The verbal component, vibrating the air with voice, which if you have not done it is choral-related chant, is impossible to do while bouncing the lungs upon your legs. That's why singers stand and sing while dancers lip synch. Not entierly true...while it does make it a TON more difficult, with good training you can chant while moving. Wizards spend a TON of time training themselves for casting, and spells like Magic Missile probably wouldn;t even be in their repertoire if the casting time took too long. The other side of the common-sense of magic coin is this: If a spell exists and isn't useful, why would a wizard ever need to know it. a 3 hour ritual that has the same effect as Expeditious Retreat or Feather Fall would never be cast by a wizard EVER, much like a combat spell that caused a wizard to be horrendously stabbed would never be learned by others either. That's my 2 cents Well, that can work certainly. I mean, we’re playing a game and you’re system will hold as much fun as my system. My system of Vancian magic is not about the popular “read and forget” definition rightfully called ridiculous but more about the actual preparation and trigger pulling: loading the precise bullet for the shot, requiring a steady hand and clear mind for accuracy, the magician being the instrument. Like a tuning fork. When magic like the LBRP example is crafted, the practitioner is required to hold specific mental images in his or her mind. The drawing of the pentagram invoked in blue flame; the calling of archangels is an evocation but based on True Will involving mental strength and image … C.G. Jung’s idea of calling atheistic archetypes in his spiritual practice rather than summoning spirits works in like manner. The video is not for experienced practitioners. This ritual, a purification spell, can be triggered in less than one minute. It is part of the preparation for longer rituals involving Jungian energy movement or spirit conversation, and is performed at the end after the license to depart has been given. Practitioners do perform this in under 1-minute with extensive practice, perhaps even with skipping an element such as by thrusting the pentagram out from the mind rather than drawing it, for example. The chant is to cause vibration within the current and the body. Imagine how Tyler’s Christopher Walken impression would sound spoken through the blades of a whirling fan. Imagine his impersonation while he is beating on his chest – these are all things we have done in our own lives to make cool sounds very unlike the usual ones that we emit. But, while they may be cool, they are not useful in magick. All this being my framework, my fluff let us say, my system will strive to evoke this shared fantasy in the minds of the players. With great power comes great risk too. And my baddies will lose their AC, too, while they cast. My players will know that the villains will work like a team around their magic users because they will have practical game experience doing just the same thing with the other players who play the role of magic users.
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Post by Stu Venable on Sept 21, 2012 15:04:55 GMT -8
I think the idea of GM distrust is an old one, one that culminated in DnD4e, where the game could virtually be run without one.
And I think that edition was a (wrong headed, yes) response to the hew and cry against bad GMs.
The thought process probably goes: More rules = less GM ruling = less of a chance for a bad GM to ruin the table experience.
And I don't think it's a surprising reaction to a fairly common problem.
Societies always make rules for the worst among us, don't they? There are laws against robbing banks, yet only a tiny percentage of us are bank robbers.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Sept 21, 2012 23:07:22 GMT -8
I think the idea of GM distrust is an old one, one that culminated in DnD4e, where the game could virtually be run without one. And I think that edition was a (wrong headed, yes) response to the hew and cry against bad GMs. The thought process probably goes: More rules = less GM ruling = less of a chance for a bad GM to ruin the table experience. And I don't think it's a surprising reaction to a fairly common problem. Societies always make rules for the worst among us, don't they? There are laws against robbing banks, yet only a tiny percentage of us are bank robbers. Too true. And publishers within the hobby would so love to be seen as The Authority and consumer Heroin so there is a culture of fear running a fun hobby industry filled with game = system into a shrinking market. Maybe it is because no one wants to ruin their fun with assholes and the laws work like a Gnome Illusion that assholes choose to disbelieve?
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