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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jan 13, 2013 2:20:38 GMT -8
@55 minutes: Jerry's story featuring "D. D." sounds like the cop is the Edward Albee of DMs. Snap go the dragons!
It probably was a testosterone problem.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2013 8:25:29 GMT -8
here is the address for the site to donate for azuretalon www.gofundme.com/littlehelp also as i said if you'd like a t-shirt please contact uselesstriviaman or muntjack we are still accepting other donnation items for our raffles and auctions as well
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Post by The Northman on Jan 13, 2013 8:38:36 GMT -8
As if it's not bad enough I have to deal with toolbag cops making me look bad professionally, now I have to deal with toolbag cop+gamers like this goon making me look bad amongst my geeky brethren?
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on Jan 13, 2013 22:44:03 GMT -8
Here's an easy solution to the "should the GM fudge doce rolls" problem. Just play a game where the GM never rolls dice. *mic drop*
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jan 14, 2013 5:58:33 GMT -8
Here's an easy solution to the "should the GM fudge doce rolls" problem. Just play a game where the GM never rolls dice. *mic drop* +karma I roll openly. Players roll 12 secret rolls and log their rolls on a sheet that gets passed around before the game begins. When I want to create tension, I wait until I have the players' attention and look to my sheet of secret rolls and cross one out. I might even ask about a modifier.... If a player's PC dies in the first 5 minutes, that is their story. The player does not die no matter what Jack Chic argues. I am a fan of cliffhangers, but I never end a session in a battle to begin the next session because that risks cold dice. When the players allow it, I prefer to give them a small fight to warm up their dice - much like the PCs themselves would sense who "brought their A-game" during that particular day of travel. If a player decides to do something patently foolish, I have two options open to me. 1) Saying with much drama: "Are you sure you want to do that?" 2) Having the player D20 under their INT or WIS 3D6 score and then, assuming the PC has paused before following his or her god's whispering, I try to correct the player's perception of the action in favour of the PC (giving the PC a break from listening to a foolish table god). Sometimes, during that conversation, I realise that I am the fool for not having thought of something so awesome once the player corrects me. Usually powerful modifiers open up the heavens and the PC basks in the players protective glory. But that's not usually the case. As the GM I need the dice to be true. Dice results - fail or success - limit my imagination not the players'. I react to them: the dice and the players. (NPCs are more malleable than PCs.) I neither Helicopter Parent them nor railroad their story even if it ends within the first 5 minutes of a session. It is not my story or my agency; it is the players’.
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Post by jazzisblues on Jan 14, 2013 6:23:23 GMT -8
I think it's risky to make absolutist statements on this topic, but what works for an individual gm or for their group is what they SHOULD do.
In my Savage Worlds Deadlands game yesterday I pointedly put my rolling tray out in front of everyone and that's whee I rolled the dice. I have two observations to make, one positive and one not so much so.
Positive note: There was no dice fudging and it made for a few tense moments for the pc's nobody died but there were a couple of points where it was a near thing.
Negative note: That also means that the players have a mechanical idea of how tough what they're facing is because they know what dice I rolled. This (imo) defeats the point of immersion a bit and makes the players more aware of the game aspect of what we're doing. I like to reduce that awareness and intrusion on immersion, but everything has its cost.
I will likely continue to make most rolls in front of the players unless there's a reason why the roll has to be secret and those will probably not be combat rolls.
As always, just my 2 krupplenicks worth, your mileage may of course vary.
JiB
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Post by Stu Venable on Jan 14, 2013 7:58:15 GMT -8
That would be an idiosyncrasy with Savage Worlds, as dice=stat, and that would be tough not to metagame for the players.
Then again, when a PC engages in one-on-one combat with Mr. Fighting at a D12, the players seeing that die might equate with the PC realizing as he engages in the fight that he's out of his depth.
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Post by jazzisblues on Jan 14, 2013 8:15:30 GMT -8
That would be an idiosyncrasy with Savage Worlds, as dice=stat, and that would be tough not to metagame for the players. Then again, when a PC engages in one-on-one combat with Mr. Fighting at a D12, the players seeing that die might equate with the PC realizing as he engages in the fight that he's out of his depth. Very very valid point. It also means a sense of panic when that damage begins exploding. JiB Sent from my MB860 using proboards
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jan 14, 2013 8:37:14 GMT -8
That would be an idiosyncrasy with Savage Worlds, as dice=stat, and that would be tough not to metagame for the players. Then again, when a PC engages in one-on-one combat with Mr. Fighting at a D12, the players seeing that die might equate with the PC realizing as he engages in the fight that he's out of his depth. Very very valid point. It also means a sense of panic when that damage begins exploding. JiB Sent from my MB860 using proboards What's wrong with player knowledge informing PC intuition? Ever have one of those failures in real life? You think, "I know I forgot something!" Eventually you leave whatever you forgot behind because you could not indentify it - only to realise what it was and how important it is halfway to your destination and say "I knew it!" Same thing. Your GM didn't remind you what you forgot because you failed the roll. Yet, you can still act on your intuition. You roll a perception check ahead of an ambush where you /should/ expect guards but see no one. Is it "too quiet" because the failure is so deafening? Do you carelessly walk into the ambush because you KNOW you failed the check? Would THAT be meta gaming? Would your PC be more cautious in his or her real life? (Until it happens, there is no ambush.)
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Post by The Northman on Jan 14, 2013 9:03:11 GMT -8
I've had a lot of experience with this particular issue, and I landed somewhere in the middle in terms of my opinion on the appropriateness of the GM choosing to alter the results that the dice provide.
For me, I never want to see the outcome of an encounter changed from success to failure or vice a versa by GM Fiat. The risk of losing a battle, or put in another way, the drama of the story, hinges on where the dice fall. When a GM chooses to ignore those results entirely, I think everyone at the table is cheated.
That isn't to say that I am in any way a fan of character that. Like most of the people I play with, I put a ton of effort into backstory and concepts for any character that I am going to play. For that reason, while I can't stand the idea that a fight might be won or lost despite dice results speaking to the contrary, I am okay with a Gm deciding that he is not going to 100% in here to every detail about the dice inform him on.
For example, I once had a character die in a relatively mundane encounters when he became separated from the group and unable to escape. Going in, the group's opponents in that fight had no connection to a larger villain. Imagine everyone's surprise then, including my own, when that character suddenly jolted back to life, having been resurrected by a main villain in the game. The group still lost that initial fight, but I used the dice results to tell me a way in which I could add to the story by using that characters fall instead of simply killing them permanently in a way that gave nothing to myself or the other players. The group was able to find out where their compatriot was being held and interrogated, and a whole new adventure sprung up along the way.
Believe me when I say that I have absolutely raged over catching GM's Throwing out the dice rolls completely to save a character. I once had a GM roll a natural 20 in front of everyone on the table, and then give out the damage (in a system where critical a are simply doubled) as an odd number. Despite warning the player that her actions could get her killed and that player ignoring several obvious openings to withdraw. Creating the feeling that there is truly no tension involved in the outcome of any encounter, and that the players are all invincible by virtue of being protagonists, absolutely kills all enjoyment in a game for me.
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Post by Kainguru on Jan 14, 2013 10:12:07 GMT -8
I'd be really interested to see how the arseburgers score in another thread correlates with views on GM fiat/dice fudging/compliance with RAW. NB: I'm not saying high scorers on that test are inflexible etc . . . I honestly don't know - just the psychologist in me creeping out and wanting to crunch some numbers in SPSS to see the result. Though I did shudder a bit when I realised that the fudge/not fudge debate seemed to dominate the podcast. Only because, as has happened, the forum was only going to but light up like bush fire in the middle of a 10 year drought with polarised opinions. Then a bit of me thought 'clever bastards' nothing like a bit of contention to rocket the forum along (cause we all know flame wars are, at the very least, entertaining ). Personally, on the roll in front or behind the screen? Two factors come into play 1) which best serves for dramatic tension 2) how far do I have to reach to get the dice (chaos is my god and predictability is my bitch . . . keep 'em guessing it's more fun) Aaron
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jan 14, 2013 10:59:33 GMT -8
Then a bit of me thought 'clever bastards' nothing like a bit of contention to rocket the forum along (cause we all know flame wars are, at the very least, entertaining ). Aaron I do not think a flame war has to occur from this, Aaron. I have some strong opinions and I hope others also have strong opinions ultimately based on our personal experience and understanding of the game. Iron sharpens iron it is written at Proverbs 27:17. But discussions like this are at the core of the game - and a reflection of our individual beliefs as players. I also think they're important to broaden the hobby intake by broadening the minds of we, the hobbyists. Remember that "there is no wrong way to play" is simply hypocritical industry code for douche bags do not exist but you're a douche bag for believing it.
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Post by Kainguru on Jan 14, 2013 11:21:29 GMT -8
CC you missed the discussion that led up to the podcast - things got a little heated (not flame warring) but opinions were being strongly expressed - again lively debate, again 'clever bastards' . You can't have a debate without a difference of opinion - the alternative is just preaching to the choir (and there are plenty if those forums around . . . Insular communities of mutual mental masturbation . . . I'm sure we've all been to those boards and that's why we are here because we're not those boards). Debate and argument can be fun, even when it gets a bit strong - provided its not personal (or if so only in jest with tongue firmly in cheek). Remember I'm Australian at heart and calling my best mate 'you fucked up arse wanking cunt bastard' is a compliment to that person (we're a crude lot but very subtly clever . . . Over the horizon radar = Australian, Gene Shears = Australian, the list goes on . . . I think it's our willingness to argue with passion but without resentment that is one of my nationalities great strengths) Aaron PS: plus I'm a great fan of Mark E Smith from 'The Fall' : "swearing is both smart and clever" PPS: re: douchey GM's/Players who are friends. Kinda gotta agree with the idea that the screwing a game advice was a tad not in character with previous HJ expositions. But sometimes it just happens . . . however I think this is less to do with RPG's and more to do with normal interpersonal relationships. We all have friends but pound to a pinch of shit I bet we don't share all the same interests with them or at an equal level of proficiency . . . some things you don't do with some friends. For example I have little interest in soccer but will politely feign a passing knowledge for those friends of mine that do . . . if they ever took me to an actual game I'd be fucked (well counting the minutes til it ends, wondering why I'm standing outside cold and miserable and wet and feeling guilty that my friend spent a small fortune to pay for me to attend this august event that is causing more pain than pleasure). My flatmate is a former skateboarder . . . I'm interested but I'm also useless . . . I'm sure if I went skateboarding with him and his skater chums they'd be very supportive and encouraging - but I'd still look like a dick and I know I'd just hurt myself (because past experience informs me that this is always the case when I go near a skateboard). But despite me being a douchey skateboarder I know they'd help me, at the very least, reach a level of skill that meant that I wouldn't automatically suffer some injury from merely passing dreaded plank on wheels - they'd laugh, probably rib me a lot but they'd try and give me the opportunity to engage in their hobby without judging me for failing or after giving it a go deciding that I prefer more friction between my feet and terra firma. If, on the other hand, they acted like arsewipes I'd have to seriously reconsider the nature of my friendships rather than the hobby . . . it's not just don't game with arseholes : don't ANYTHING with arseholes
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Jan 14, 2013 15:38:20 GMT -8
Correction... (?): If I recall correctly, Dave Arneson is responsible for both AC and HP not Gygax. I think there was a court case about that back when AD&D was new.
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Post by uselesstriviaman on Jan 14, 2013 18:44:01 GMT -8
For powerful-strong beers, I'll defer to AzureTalon and his story about succumbing to the evil that is Arrogant Bastard. Speaking of the Blue Claw, Stork asked about the t-shirts. We've got two designs to choose from: or If you'd like to order one of the shirts, drop me a message. We're only doing 'em in black, but you can order any size you want for $20 (and postage is included in that twenty - USA only though). If any of you foreign-types want a shirt, PM me and we can probably work something out.
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