Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Really?
Mar 17, 2013 16:36:59 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 16:36:59 GMT -8
So, I started reading through Apocalypse World tonight, and within just a few pages, I stopped and basically spoke out-loud, "are you fucking kidding me?". Any guesses what I stopped on while reading?
I am not a patient man. How in the FUCK is there a mechanic for when, in a story telling game, you have sex with another character? These guys are fucking high, right? Oh, you can try to ignore that...save it has its own fucking paragraph right in the middle of the character sheet.
Get the fuck out of here.
Cool system, very neat, but come the fuck on.
Flame on.
|
|
|
Really?
Mar 17, 2013 17:25:19 GMT -8
Post by malifer on Mar 17, 2013 17:25:19 GMT -8
So...I think I'll leave it to Hyve to link to his old posts or to write a new dissertation on sex moves.
But in defense of AW, when I think of post-apocalyptic movies there does seem to be quite a bit of sex and usually at the dumbest time possible.
As a new fan of the AW Engine I would say AW is might be my least favorite and this is coming from someone who will most likely never even play Monsterhearts.
Vincent Baker's Dogs in the Vineyard was one of my favorite Rpgs to read.
But his Apocalypse World makes me cringe and not because of the sex, because of all sorts of "cool" lingo like "Go Aggro" or "Fuck this Shit"
It feels like a teenage boy wrote it...what next busty barbarian bimbos.
...it may have been Hyvemind, but I remember someone saying Apocalypse World is the best terribly written roleplaying game.
I would agree with that.
I really dig Dungeon World and Monster of the Week, but I find it a struggle to read AW.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Really?
Mar 17, 2013 17:51:02 GMT -8
Post by HyveMynd on Mar 17, 2013 17:51:02 GMT -8
LOL. Yep. I was 99% sure this thread would be about the Apocalypse World Sex Moves based on the title. ;D You're not the first, nor will you be the last person to feel this way, kosherinfidel. One of the players in my group was like "Yeah. Sex Moves? No thanks." Personally, I think the Sex Moves are fucking brilliant, and here's why. First and foremost, they are not "sex moves" in the usual, real world sense, meaning that they are not "moves your character performs during sex". No 69ing, no doggy style, no reverse cowgirl, or whatever here. Instead, they are a mechanical representation of how the relationship between two people changes after those they have sex. Let's face it. In the real world, having sex changes the dynamic of a relationship. A one night stand with someone in your office? Yeah, that's going to be awkward when you see them the next day. A series of casual hookups that don't mean anything? Someone might develop feelings and want more of a relationship. Sleeping with someone after the first date? Things are going to be different from then on. Maybe it's great and brings you closer together. Maybe someone feels guilty and starts to pull away. The point is, once you've had sex, things between you and your partner are different. That's what Apocalypse World Sex Moves do. Some groups don't like sex in their games. I get that. If that's the case, then the Sex Moves will never be triggered, as no one in your game will ever have sex. If it really bothers you, take a sharpie to that paragraph of the character playbooks. If it's something you just can't ignore and can't get past, I understand, but feel like you're throwing away a great game for a very minor reason. Some groups do include sex in their games, but leave it all off-screen. That's fine too. There is nothing in the Apocalypse World book that says you have to roleplay out the sex. In that article I wrote for Douchey DM, I said that people should probably never roleplay out sex scenes. It's just awkward. So you fade to black, gloss over it, have it happen off screen. Having Sex Moves doesn't force you to put anything "on screen". Some groups that do include sex in their games just use it as comic relief. "I take the busty bar wench upstairs, and you hear the rafters creaking" sort of thing. My question is why? What did that add to the game? Is there going to be a consequence for the character's action? No? Then why do it at all? It didn't add anything to the story, except maybe allow an awkward person to simulate having a girlfriend/boyfriend for a little while. Don't do that. It's creepy and juvenile in my opinion. So, there it is. The reason I think Apocalypse World Sex Moves are awesome. They complicate the story by complicating the relationship between two characters. Great. You two have knocked boots. Let's see what happens because of that. One last thing. If you can't stomach Sex Moves, I strongly suggest you stay away from Monsterhearts. That game is pretty much nothing but sex.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Really?
Mar 17, 2013 17:52:24 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 17:52:24 GMT -8
You know, that is true, the Aggro stuff is silly. I still think the system is okay (not great), but yeah...teen angst.
Dungeon World is definitely fun to read, I am going to pick up MotW shortly. Seems interesting, but I am not a WoD fan (in the vamps are lame camp)...I want to see what it can do.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Really?
Mar 17, 2013 17:57:17 GMT -8
Post by HyveMynd on Mar 17, 2013 17:57:17 GMT -8
I dunno if I said that "Apocalypse World is the best terribly written roleplaying game". Maybe I did. I can't remember. I definitely remember saying the writing was divisive though. Personally, I could read the AW book all day long, as I like the style it's written in. Other people in my group would agree with you, malifer and kosherinfidel; they can't stant it's writing style. It's just a matter of taste.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Really?
Mar 17, 2013 17:58:20 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Mar 17, 2013 17:58:20 GMT -8
I am 40...married with kids, I get the implications of what the author wants to achieve; and I say it is silly, trite, and not vital to the act of RPing. I am no puritan (Sailor), but some shit is just not integral to gaming. It detracts and breaks 99% of gamers out of the fiction of the game.
Thanks for the reply Hyve.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Really?
Mar 17, 2013 18:20:14 GMT -8
Post by HyveMynd on Mar 17, 2013 18:20:14 GMT -8
No problem, kosherinfidel. I fully understand that for some groups, sex is simply not a part of their roleplaying experience. If you like everything else about Apocalypse World (which from that last post it doesn't sound like you do), it's dead easy to simply ignore the Sex Moves. Nothing else hinges on them, and removing them won't affect the rest of the mechanics in any way. If you like the system but not the style or tone of Apocalypse World kosherinfidel, I would recommend Dungeon World or Monster of the Week, as malifer has already done. No sex and no cursing in those books at all (I might be wrong about MotW though). Those are the only two finished products I can think of that are "clean". There are a number of other "unfinished" hacks, including The Sprawl (cyberpunk) and The Regiment (WWII soldiers or Colonial Marines) that don't have Sex Moves or foul language.
|
|
|
Really?
Mar 17, 2013 19:02:12 GMT -8
Post by malifer on Mar 17, 2013 19:02:12 GMT -8
You know, that is true, the Aggro stuff is silly. I still think the system is okay (not great), but yeah...teen angst. Dungeon World is definitely fun to read, I am going to pick up MotW shortly. Seems interesting, but I am not a WoD fan (in the vamps are lame camp)...I want to see what it can do. Monster of the Week emulates The X-Files, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Supernatural. Not really WoD. I bought the book thinking I would use it for a Supernatural style game, but after reading some of it I think I dig the X-Files vibe a lot more.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Really?
Mar 18, 2013 1:01:35 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Mar 18, 2013 1:01:35 GMT -8
You know, that is true, the Aggro stuff is silly. I still think the system is okay (not great), but yeah...teen angst. Dungeon World is definitely fun to read, I am going to pick up MotW shortly. Seems interesting, but I am not a WoD fan (in the vamps are lame camp)...I want to see what it can do. Monster of the Week emulates The X-Files, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Supernatural. Not really WoD. I bought the book thinking I would use it for a Supernatural style game, but after reading some of it I think I dig the X-Files vibe a lot more. That sounds awesome!
|
|
|
Really?
Mar 18, 2013 7:03:54 GMT -8
Post by shadrack on Mar 18, 2013 7:03:54 GMT -8
I'm on Hyve's side on this one.
I personally, thought the tone was appropriate for what Vincent was going for. I also thought it was kind of interesting (quite a change of pace as well) to see a book written in such a different style. That being said (nod to JiB), it will 100% not be the RPG I hand to a newbie looking to get into the hobby.
Regardless, on to the moves. I think they're interesting, clearly if your party/group isn't interested, axe them. (As in, axe the rules from the game, not axe them the question, and not hit your players with an axe).
I personally like the BattleBabe's move. "The other person's move doesn't work. "
I just had an odd thought. Doesn't it seem like sex moves also belong in a 'Conan the Barbarian' style game? There's quite a bit of that going on over there. I may need to write an AW hack for that (or is there one...). Because Conan is clearly a Battlebabe.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Really?
Mar 18, 2013 17:55:50 GMT -8
Post by HyveMynd on Mar 18, 2013 17:55:50 GMT -8
Like shadrack, I thought the tone and language of Apocalypse World were both appropriate for the setting and a nice change from the usual writing style of RPG books. To me Vincent didn't come off as being confrontational or edgy, he came off as being blunt but conversational. I realize that any and every RPG book has the potential to be someone's first game, but as an established gamer I get kind of tired of the usual "what is an RPG?" intro chapter and bland tone. To me, Vincent was saying "Look, you know all this stuff already, so let's just skip over the bullshit, shall we?" In an interview I heard with Vincent, he said he knew the writing style would be divisive and turn off some potential players. He also said his biggest regret with the book was being unable to share it with his younger brother, whom he said would love the game, because of the profanity. I totally get that it rubs some people the wrong way. I won't keep beating this poor, dead horse though. Thanks for giving the book a try, kosherinfidel. Hopefully you don't feel as if you've wasted your money. I agree, shadrack. The Battlebabe's Sex Move is awesome. Not only do they not have a Sex Move, but they cancel out the other person's Sex Move too. When the Battlebabe has sex with someone, nothing happens. For this one character, sex is totally meaningless. That's totally appropriate for someone who can use their attractiveness as a weapon. The link malifer put up in the Hackity Hack thread has a link to two Conan inspired hacks of the Apocalypse World engine; Hyborian Saga and World of Conan. Both have the same Sex Move for the Barbarian playbook; the PC heals a harm segment when the have sex with someone. Meh. It's appropriate, as it encourages the Barbarian to get jiggy often and with just about anyone, but it's not that exciting.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Really?
Mar 19, 2013 4:40:52 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Mar 19, 2013 4:40:52 GMT -8
Like shadrack, I thought the tone and language of Apocalypse World were both appropriate for the setting and a nice change from the usual writing style of RPG books. To me Vincent didn't come off as being confrontational or edgy, he came off as being blunt but conversational. I realize that any and every RPG book has the potential to be someone's first game, but as an established gamer I get kind of tired of the usual "what is an RPG?" intro chapter and bland tone. To me, Vincent was saying "Look, you know all this stuff already, so let's just skip over the bullshit, shall we?" In an interview I heard with Vincent, he said he knew the writing style would be divisive and turn off some potential players. He also said his biggest regret with the book was being unable to share it with his younger brother, whom he said would love the game, because of the profanity. I totally get that it rubs some people the wrong way. I won't keep beating this poor, dead horse though. Thanks for giving the book a try, kosherinfidel. Hopefully you don't feel as if you've wasted your money. I agree, shadrack. The Battlebabe's Sex Move is awesome. Not only do they not have a Sex Move, but they cancel out the other person's Sex Move too. When the Battlebabe has sex with someone, nothing happens. For this one character, sex is totally meaningless. That's totally appropriate for someone who can use their attractiveness as a weapon. The link malifer put up in the Hackity Hack thread has a link to two Conan inspired hacks of the Apocalypse World engine; Hyborian Saga and World of Conan. Both have the same Sex Move for the Barbarian playbook; the PC heals a harm segment when the have sex with someone. Meh. It's appropriate, as it encourages the Barbarian to get jiggy often and with just about anyone, but it's not that exciting. I still think the system is interesting, the swearing I give a fuck about...I swear during all of my games. I got the pdf on sale, so it is not a big expenditure. The only real issue, well, the most glaring one, is that the sex thing is trite and puerile. Not amazing, shocking, or adult.
|
|
|
Really?
Mar 19, 2013 5:28:06 GMT -8
Post by jazzisblues on Mar 19, 2013 5:28:06 GMT -8
I have not played with them yet, but the thing I dig about the sex moves is it gives some sort of codification to the result of the act which is something that people often want to gloss over. I like the fact that it puts game consequences on the actions that people take. I am totally on board with Hyve about just let it fade to black and have it take place off screen. Think of it as a "cut to commercial" moment.
Cheers,
JiB
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Really?
Mar 19, 2013 20:07:14 GMT -8
Post by HyveMynd on Mar 19, 2013 20:07:14 GMT -8
The only real issue, well, the most glaring one, is that the sex thing is trite and puerile. Not amazing, shocking, or adult. kosherinfidel, do you mind if I ask why you think the sex thing is juvenile? As I said, I totally get that including sex in games is just not what some groups want to do, but I didn't think there was anything childish or puerile about the way the author presented it. The first time sex moves are brought up (which I'm guessing is the paragraph you mention in your initial post) is simply this: Each of the characters also has a special move that kicks in when they have sex with someone. For most of the characters, the special sex moves apply when they have sex with another player’s character, not with oh just anybody, but for a few of them, oh just anybody will do. I totally understand people going "WTF? A 'special' move for sex? Come on!" and getting the wrong impression. But I don't see anything juvenile about how that paragraph is written. The only other times that sex moves are mentioned in the book are in the individual character descriptions for the player starting on page 20, and then again when the character moves are explained for the MC starting on page 216. In each and every case, the wording is a very slight variation of "have sex"; such as "when you and another character have sex", "when you have sex with another character", "if you have sex with an NPC", etc. Nowhere in the text are childish euphemisms, crude references, or vulgar slang for genitalia or the act of sex. I don't even think you'll find the word "fuck" used to refer to the act of having sex. Again, I don't get the impression that the author is attempting to be shocking with the inclusion of sex in the game, just matter of fact. Just a straight up "sex can happen in this game and here's how it's handled" sort of thing. I'm certainly not trying to attack you kosherinfidel, and I totally understand if you'd rather just end this conversation, but I really don't see how the topic of sex is treated in a juvenile manner in Apocalypse World.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Really?
Apr 5, 2013 18:15:40 GMT -8
Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2013 18:15:40 GMT -8
I will start by saying that I just got the book recently and haven't read that much of it yet.
I have listened to a couple of sessions of an AP by The Jank Cast, though. What I have gathered from this limited experience is that Apocalypse World is a game about interpersonal relationships. These relationships happen to take place in a post-apocalyptic setting. That setting affects relationships just as it affects life in general.
When you play a game like D&D, you can explore the relationships between the players, but that isn't what the game is "about". The mechanics of the game certainly have little or nothing to do with relationships; that isn't the focus of the game.
From what I can tell, relationships are what AP is about and the mechanics support that. Sex, or the lack thereof, can help to define a relationship and its introduction can often change the relationship (as has been mentioned before). It seems only fitting that a game about (adult) relationships should include sex.
Of course, I also agree with the others that you don't need to include it if you don't want to. You can still play D&D without bards...I don't know who would want to, but you can. ;D
|
|