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Post by guitarspider on Mar 23, 2014 0:50:03 GMT -8
I recently reread the book and I found some places that were interesting, stuff that I had half forgotten and so on. Yes, it may not have blown my mind, but I (re-)learned some things that I used in the games afterwards. I seem to have a better memory than most people I know, but even so, rereading is almost never useless to me. It's a way to root myself back into the game and a way to find small corners that I had missed before. Granted, DW is not a book you'll be referencing a lot, the game itself is not very complicated, but there are still things to learn. DW is a book with small corners, as are most narrative games. It's just a question of finding the corners you missed last time. Yes, there may be games that are more worthy of being re-read (Dogs in the Vineyard still blows my mind every time I read it), yes, you may find the amount of time is not worth what you learned, but useless? No. Not even for Mr. malifer. Noone of us is perfect at running any game.
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Post by malifer on Mar 23, 2014 5:39:18 GMT -8
I recently reread the book and I found some places that were interesting, stuff that I had half forgotten and so on. Yes, it may not have blown my mind, but I (re-)learned some things that I used in the games afterwards. I seem to have a better memory than most people I know, but even so, rereading is almost never useless to me. It's a way to root myself back into the game and a way to find small corners that I had missed before. Granted, DW is not a book you'll be referencing a lot, the game itself is not very complicated, but there are still things to learn. DW is a book with small corners, as are most narrative games. It's just a question of finding the corners you missed last time. Yes, there may be games that are more worthy of being re-read (Dogs in the Vineyard still blows my mind every time I read it), yes, you may find the amount of time is not worth what you learned, but useless? No. Not even for Mr. malifer. Noone of us is perfect at running any game. Have you read the DW guide? It's pretty good and I think arguably better at describing the game at a mere 90 pages. I am pleased your are happy with the book. I am not. It may be the first Rpg I own that's a great game with a terrible book. Normally it's the other way around. In the same AW Engine I think the Monster of the Week, while again not a fun read, is good at explaining the game. It clocks in at 194 pages and is so far my favorite of the AW engines books. We do agree however that Dogs in the Vineyard very well written rpg. I think that book is worth reading, even though I'm not sure I would ever actually run it. As far as running a game. Perfect is the enemy of the good. I believe it was Sirguido that posted a joke a while ago. It said "the game we want to run" and had a picture of LoTR. The next caption was "the game we end up running" and had a picture of Monty Python and the Holy Grail. I gave up on running LoTR a long time ago, I aim for Holy Grail. Mostly because it involves less prep. Lastly though and what I find most intriguing about this non-argument is that we both enjoy the game. So next jackercon we should both be in one together.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Mar 23, 2014 12:20:56 GMT -8
Oh you two...
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Post by guitarspider on Apr 1, 2014 8:23:32 GMT -8
The guide is good, but I don't think it's worth rereading. We do agree however that Dogs in the Vineyard very well written rpg. I think that book is worth reading, even though I'm not sure I would ever actually run it. Fair enough, I would never run that game if I wasn't 100% sure the people I was playing with were able to handle it. I'd never run it at Jackercon where anyone might sign up, for instance, though I could imagine running it for a group of forumites. DitV is simply not a game for everybody. It's not about running the perfect game though. It's simply a fact that you can re-read good literature throughout your whole life, you'll always find something new and interesting, because you've changed, your experience is different. I'll hold that the same goes for good rpg rule books. We change as GMs, and we start seeing things we didn't see last time. Our growth as GMs enables us to take in things we did not see or appreciate before, and that makes us better GMs. I guess I'm hammering that point needlessly, but to me that kind of humility in front of and readiness to learn from a book is precious. I'll probably be running a game again, you're very welcome.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on May 22, 2014 9:25:06 GMT -8
I'm curious how long people usually play AW/DW for at a stretch. Is it the go-to game for a lot of people, with long campaigns spanning months of play? Or is it more of an occasional filler game in between other things? OK, now that I have a few sessions under my belt, I have to say that I think this system is fabulous in general, but also fabulous for me in terms of running a campaign. Why? Here: At first look the character classes / character sheets seemed very restrictive. You are fighter, so you must choose a sword. The list of descriptors for looks was short, but yes, thematic. I thought my players would have a tough time working within the confines of the limited choices. Boy was I wrong. If you have creative players, you will likely have a variety of ways some of these seemingly limited choices will go. - I have a fighter who is actually from "the future" and used to be a butcher in a meat factory. His sword is his futuristic butcher's knife (with flashlight and embedded pen). He is learning to make his way through this barbaric world, from the peace-loving utopia he came from.
- I have a wizard who was a boy when his village was massacred, and has then spent the next 40 years helping the dead spirits of those villagers find peace by helping them. In that time, live people have moved back to the village and he is just known as the kook who talks to himself and his imaginary friends, but then again, he also helps the village out since he can talk to the dead who know things. Magic? His spellbook is not a book, but instead consists of a few tokens that correspond to specific spirits he's helped, each of whom give him some power.
- I have a druid with salmon rainbow eyes, who has learned through shape-shifting that he no longer considers himself male or female, and is instead androgynous, and is also trying to infiltrate the army of the empire, for vengeance to what was done to his village of timber workers.
- I have a cleric who worships the god of the putrid and underearth, and is learning to control the dead.
The point is that I thought the character sheet limiting, but it's just really a good guideline for some tropes, with space to go crazy outside of that. I think it helps to put quotes around certain things that you want to play with, e.g. every fighter has a "sword", allows you to make a fighter who is not specifically sword based, but still has a very specific weapon that he is attached to. When a bond says that "you don't think ____ can survive in the dungeon", you just make dungeon mean "dangerous places" or "the wilderness", and it opens more doors. Same thing with the wizard's "spellbook". I think character progression feels more organic than in D&D. I also like that many classes have ways to cross-pollinate, such as the Ranger can choose (during level up) and have a deity and gain Cleric spells. Not only is this an additional ability, but it suddenly encourages more story... who is this deity? How did you come by them? What have you promised to do to serve them? Or do they really serve you? etc. One of my favorite parts however, is that failure = XP, and failure = more story. This really makes failure more interesting. And the fact that combat has no initiative and is really not separate from the story itself (it's not stopping the story and starting a board game), just more of a seamless continuation of the story. So far I'm bought in, however I'm interested to see how it works if you decide to run more campaigns later... do you end up using the same classes? Find new ones out there? (of which I've found a few from either other AW-based games, or other contributions / modules) I'm enjoying running this more than I did Savage Worlds, which itself I like infinitely more than d20 games.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on May 23, 2014 17:06:56 GMT -8
I'm enjoying running this more than I did Savage Worlds, which itself I like infinitely more than d20 games. BOO-YAH!
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on May 23, 2014 22:56:57 GMT -8
That sounds like a total win of a game tomes. Do you find that your ability to create what goes wrong (after a success with complications result) is getting easier? Because my run at apocalypse world definitely had me at times at a bit of a loss.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on May 28, 2014 21:04:03 GMT -8
That sounds like a total win of a game tomes. Do you find that your ability to create what goes wrong (after a success with complications result) is getting easier? Because my run at apocalypse world definitely had me at times at a bit of a loss. That is definitely something I'm working on... I wouldn't say I'm good or great at that, but occasionally I get glimpses of what it should be like (similar to the examples in the book, which are pretty fantastic, but it's hard to get those on the fly so far) I am struggling with my min-maxer not necessarily being into the mechanics being so loose... he wants a little more to grab onto. That said, he's an RP-er, so he's mostly OK.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on May 28, 2014 21:14:06 GMT -8
I'm enjoying running this more than I did Savage Worlds, which itself I like infinitely more than d20 games. BOO-YAH! And I have you to partially blame for that, you bastard.
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Post by malifer on May 29, 2014 5:54:43 GMT -8
That sounds like a total win of a game tomes. Do you find that your ability to create what goes wrong (after a success with complications result) is getting easier? Because my run at apocalypse world definitely had me at times at a bit of a loss. I would say the first time I ran DW, it was a slightly repetitive with my Gm choices, but it should get easier.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on May 29, 2014 8:42:47 GMT -8
To that end, one thing that helps is an idea of some of the wrenches I want to throw at them ahead of time. That way you can drop these in when they roll a 7-9 or 6- and it seems more organic and a side effect of their actions, rather than just the GM narrating. It's kind of like faking-the-funk spontaneity.
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Post by malifer on May 29, 2014 8:56:50 GMT -8
To that end, one thing that helps is an idea of some of the wrenches I want to throw at them ahead of time. That way you can drop these in when they roll a 7-9 or 6- and it seems more organic and a side effect of their actions, rather than just the GM narrating. It's kind of like faking-the-funk spontaneity. Whoa...ummm that sounds like prepping.
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tomes
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Post by tomes on May 29, 2014 11:55:02 GMT -8
Whoa...ummm that sounds like prepping. Tomato tomato (wow that really doesn't work in written form!) I like to think of it this way: When a GM just creates story without PC interaction we say they are just masturbating while the PCs watch. I like to think of this as the jacking off I do prior to the game. There really is no shame in that, right? And it really harms no one. :-)
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jun 1, 2014 19:08:38 GMT -8
I would say the first time I ran DW, it was a slightly repetitive with my Gm choices, but it should get easier. I forget where I read this (maybe in the Apocalypse World G+ community), but I've heard some people put a check mark next to each GM move as they make it. Then they have a visual reminder of what moves they may be making too often and what moves they should focus on a little more. I haven't tried it myself, but it seems like a decent idea.
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