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Post by uselesstriviaman on Jan 13, 2012 10:51:02 GMT -8
If my PC were to bull rush an opponent into an open 15'x15' pit, would that sucker opponent get a saving throw to avoid falling?
My initial thought was that the victim would get a Reflex save. Let's set it at a DC 12 or so to grab the edge of the pit. But if they roll a 17 or higher, they avoid the pit altogether.
However, if the bull rush was strong enough to push them the extra 5 feet into the center of the pit, the DCs would be 17 to grab on and dangle, or a 22 to somehow manage to either leap clear or stop before skidding into the abyss below.
Thoughts? Comments? Would this be too lenient?
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Post by fray on Jan 13, 2012 13:31:09 GMT -8
I'd say that is reasonable. See this spell for a similar thing: Create Pit School conjuration (creation); Level sorcerer/wizard 2, summoner 2 Casting Time 1 standard action Components V, S, F (miniature shovel costing 10 gp) Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level) Effect 10-ft.-by-10-ft. hole, 10 ft. deep/2 levels Duration 1 round + 1 round/level Saving Throw Reflex negates; Spell Resistance no You create a 10-foot-by-10-foot extradimensional hole with a depth of 10 feet per two caster levels (maximum 30 feet). You must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size. Since it extends into another dimension, the pit has no weight and does not otherwise displace the original underlying material. You can create the pit in the deck of a ship as easily as in a dungeon floor or the ground of a forest. Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space. In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it. Creatures subjected to an effect intended to push them into the pit (such as bull rush) do not get a saving throw to avoid falling in if they are affected by the pushing effect.
Which pretty much matches what you are proposing. Reflex DC 12 for the base save sounds good to me. Creatures who fall into the pit take falling damage as normal. The pit's coarse stone walls have a Climb DC of 25. When the duration of the spell ends, creatures within the hole rise up with the bottom of the pit until they are standing on the surface over the course of a single round.
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Post by uselesstriviaman on Jan 13, 2012 17:20:47 GMT -8
Heh heh, my pit is slightly more deadly. Anyone who falls in discovers what it feels like to be run through a massive industrial shredder. (Y'know, the ones that can turn an engine block into quarter-sized chunks.) But thanks for the input - I wanted to make sure I'm doing this (approximately) by the book, since it's for a convention game.
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Post by ironnikki on Jan 18, 2012 7:42:27 GMT -8
That sounds reasonable to me, although the last sentence of the spell that fray posted seems to suggest that pushing someone into the pit does NOT allow for a save. All the same, I could see someone's tuned reflexes allowing them to jump away at the last minute, or grab on to the edge of the pit.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 3, 2012 13:55:08 GMT -8
Jumping in a bit late but I'll comment anyway ...
Bull Rush
You can make a bull rush as a standard action or as part of a charge, in place of the melee attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Bull Rush feat, or a similar ability, initiating a bull rush provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack is successful, your target is pushed back 5 feet. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent's CMD you can push the target back an additional 5 feet. You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so. If your attack fails, your movement ends in front of the target.
An enemy being moved by a bull rush does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Bull Rush feat. You cannot bull rush a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle. If there is another creature in the way of your bull rush, you must immediately make a combat maneuver check to bull rush that creature. You take a –4 penalty on this check for each creature being pushed beyond the first. If you are successful, you can continue to push the creatures a distance equal to the lesser result. For example, if a fighter bull rushes a goblin for a total of 15 feet, but there is another goblin 5 feet behind the first, he must make another combat maneuver check against the second goblin after having pushed the first 5 feet. If his check reveals that he can push the second goblin a total of 20 feet, he can continue to push both goblins another 10 feet (since the first goblin will have moved a total of 15 feet).
My view is that if the bull rush succeeds into the pit they go without a save.
I would say that the person making the bull rush would need to make a reflex save as you described or fall into the pit as well. If your bull rush provoked an attack of opportunity (situational) then the victim could try to counter grapple and drag you into the pit with them.
Just my thoughts, it could be done a number of different ways.
JiB
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jimto
Supporter
Posts: 246
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Post by jimto on Feb 14, 2012 13:07:28 GMT -8
Hey UTM,
How did you end up handling this when you ran? I don't think anyone one went in the grinder any of the times I was watching.
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Post by uselesstriviaman on Feb 15, 2012 8:33:44 GMT -8
We had a couple of attempted bull rushes, but none actually succeeded.
The official ruling was that if the bull rush worked, the target could make a DC 35 Climb check to grab the edge of the pit to avoid going into the grinder. If the target were bull rushed into the center of the pit, he was simply turned into hamburger, no save.
Edited to add: JiB, I initially thought along the same lines. I learned though, that in PF you can't use an AoO to initiate a grapple (but you could in 3.5E). The attacker in a bull rush can choose to move with the target, but the rules specifically state that he can choose to NOT move with the target. So the best the target can hope for is an AoO, unless the attacker has the Improved Bull Rush feat.
I got some really good advice from some rules lawyers over on the ENWorld PF forums, for which I was totally grateful.
Maybe we'll get to see a successful bull rush at Xenocon in April!
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muertog
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 147
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Post by muertog on Feb 17, 2012 9:20:04 GMT -8
Again, late, but my 0.03$ (inflation, ya'know)...
Any time there is a chance for instant-death, there should be an opportunity for a saving throw of SOME sort. One-sided interaction tends to remove the "fun" factor, unless this is a specific one-of-a-kind threat. IE: Sarlacc pit.
This is the same reasoning for giving most "Instant Death" type spells multiple ways of avoidance, IE: Multiple Saves, Magic Resistance.
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Post by uselesstriviaman on Feb 19, 2012 14:04:11 GMT -8
If I were running something like this in my home campaign, I'd totally agree. But given the incredible lethality of this convention game one-shot arena, we are totally good with using it just as written.
Heh, we're running the event again at our even-more-local convention in April, and we're already plotting a few new twists to make it even harder to live through...
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