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Post by Kainguru on May 23, 2013 6:20:44 GMT -8
Been trying to think this one through in terms of alignment in AD&D 1e and an appropriate consequence. The character in question is Chaotic Neutral . . . he's inadvertently impregnated his sister who is a Chaotic Evil priestess of Iuz. She's a recurring villain, he didn't know she was his sister at the time or the circumstances that led down this dark path . . . all he knows is that he was sent to study with the druids as a bard at the age of 5 - leaving his family behind. What happened is that he is the youngest son of a senior member of the Knight Protectors of the Great Kingdom . . . who were holed up in the Bone March (due to a blanket order to eliminate said order by the Despotic Over King of Great Kingdom - a person NOT considered by the Order to be the legitimate heir to the Throne). When the Bone March fell to humanoid invaders from the north the PC's father was apprehended by the forces of the Great Kingdom - due to having to cross those lands to secure the Orders retreat to one of it's other strongholds. His family had been sent west to the Adri Forest for protection while he was securing the retreat east. He wasn't executed, instead the Over King was far more malicious and forcibly converted him into one of his many Demonic Knights of Doom (NOT death knights . . . rather a pale copy of them directly under the thrall of the Over King). This is why the PC was sent away a youth . . . to the safety and security of a mentor who was friends with the PC's family (specifically the mother). The trauma of what happened affected his older sister profoundly . . . she strayed into the ways of chaos and evil perceiving her fathers conversion as an apotheosis rather than the tragedy it really is. The moral dilemma? the PC is hell bent on killing his sister . . . pregnant or not. Yeah he's CN but there must be limits . . . in my opinion he should capture her and at least allow the pregnancy go to full term then, maybe, execute her . . . but even that still doesn't feel right. She is his sister and she has reasons for what led her down this path . . . should he not try to to redeem her first? Chaotic Neutral shouldn't be do whatever you want with no consequences . . . there must be limits that bound the alignment. In this case what should those limits be? ideas/suggestions/advice? Aaron
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on May 23, 2013 6:59:49 GMT -8
Well, I guess my question is this, did you ask the players if they were OK with an incestuous child as part of the story? In my opinion that's up there with things like rape and child pornography, that I would strongly object to. For me, being forced to be complicit in such an act would be unacceptable from a roleplaying standpoint, regardless of my characters alignment.
I guess if your players agreed that this storyline is OK, then it makes sense to hold the character to their alignment. If however the player (not character) in question is feeling offended by what's happened, I think a bit more latitude should probably be given.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on May 23, 2013 7:01:27 GMT -8
These questions are what I fuckin hate about ALIGNMENTS...sorry to be agro about it. But, I've always seen alignments like Pirate Laws (more like guidelines) i.e. aids to roleplay your character. But D&D, AD&D, and on to Pathfinder have various mechanical aspects to the game that brings alignment into play. Magic Circle vs Evil, Magic Circle vs Good, Law, Chaos, etc...I've always seen alignments as a moral sliding scale/compass (to mix metaphors). Killing your pregnant sister (pregnant with your child...Wow sir you take 'em to dark places !) is a pretty fuckin evil act. But, if that is the game your running i.e. characters come into contact with really EVIL individuals and someone already Chaotic Neutral is certainly showing some proclivities towards sliding in that direction...Let 'em do it. And there shall be their final fall to the DARK SIDE. Again depends on the game you and your players are hoping to run. Evil campaigns in D&D for me always seemed like a slight side step from Paranoia. Kinda crazy, a kind of fun free for all, but letting a player group descend into the gutters of moral depravity and have a little swim was never my cup o' tea. The old Atari Temple of Elemental Evil game let you play various alignments that would certainly change the outcome of the story. Sounds like the sororicidal PC is on the road to join up with Iuz's faction. When I played the original AD&D ToEE back when dinosaurs ruled the earth I was a balls to wall Paladin who went down in a blaze of glory somewhere on the Fire Level. It was awesome. But I always hated being just LAWFUL GOOD. The paladin in my Pathfinder campaign is a doubting Thomas that is just amazing to watch unfold as a character. Good luck with that one sir, (and phuck alignment ) Curt J.
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Post by The Northman on May 23, 2013 8:33:03 GMT -8
I've always been lucky in that our group might play a system that requires alignments for magical effects or other mechanical features to function, but everyone is allowed to offer their interpretation up for how that alignment defines them.
That being said, I think it's really important to talk with this character and find out -why- this is his plan. CN can be a pretty tough to assign any real consequences to based on rp unless the character is clearly acting with some external code or sense of morality that defies the self-serving, anarchic nature of the alignment. Is he killing her because she's evil? He shouldn't really care. Is he doing it just because he's mad he got duped? That's probably ok. Throwing in the child means he has to justify that, too, but when you've chosen a code of conduct that basically ignores the idea of good and evil in favor of selfishness, revenge is a pretty good motivator for damn near anything. Or the character may decide that all of this has driven him to one side or another, and that CN doesn't even really fit anymore. That's a consequence in and of itself, even if it's not a punishment.
Any consequences I'd worry about are of a different nature. Give him some sort of sign that killing the child is over the top (if you've decided it is, based on his reasoning), and if he chooses to go ahead with it, run with DTP's idea. Maybe all of a sudden the paladin in the group picks up a sense evil vibe from the 'CN' character, or a spell or item that depends on an evil alignment has an effect on the character. Or maybe the good members of the party turn on him completely, if they know the full story.
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Post by Kainguru on May 23, 2013 10:21:49 GMT -8
Well to answer some questions . . . It was the result of an encounter he initiated. It kinda went dark from that point in . . . A NPC was introduced and went balls to the wall for seduction - though hints had been dropped. I let the dice fall where they may and have been RPing the consequences ever since. His motivation is anger at being duped though he was the protagonist - she bring CE had no moral reason to object and it suited her plans re: blackmail, emotional ammunition etc. He knows very little about his father and nothing about what he has become. AI yeah for CN I draw the line at the child. The sister, not so much . . . I suppose it's less about alignment with that one and more to do with it being his sister as a RP consideration. Aaron
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on May 23, 2013 10:51:21 GMT -8
Well, if the player is on board I like Mr. Pints idea of treating alignment like a sliding scale. Perhaps this murder could be used the start of the characters slide into evil (and then possible redemption later).
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Post by Kainguru on May 23, 2013 11:33:36 GMT -8
Aye this was my feeling too but I wanted to sound it out and bounce it around a bit rather than just 'go it alone'. Obviously for reasons of plot such discussion with the players would be limited - no big reveals when it's been discussed before hand. As an aside yeah I do go rather dark in my games - not fatal dark!!! Just morally ambiguous. My changeling PC had murdered his wife before he was taken by the fey - though this was due to the GM misreading a paragraph in my back story and me deciding to roll with it. Interestingly though that PC turned out to be the most human of all the group - refusing to use his powers unless in extremis and feeling more remorse than the others when innocent bystanders got caught in the cross fire (which did literally happen - another PC accidentally shot a passerby . . . My PC broke the rules and did everything he could to get said innocent healed by granting them access to nearby fey magics) Aaron
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Post by Kainguru on May 24, 2013 2:22:49 GMT -8
And driving home from work this morning, contemplating given advice, I think I just found the solution . . . Or rather the appropriate consequence if the player persists in being a total sociopath, plus it makes the already dark practicality pitch black. She's a cleric with superiors . . . Maybe her plan all along was precisely this to goad him into an act so evil and immoral that it would shift his alignment to chaotic evil (embrace the darkside, let your anger flow etc). Yeah she dies but whats a resurrection between colleagues and for the greater evil - she losses a point of constitution but gains another potential ally . . . Someone else who can also appreciate what their father has become as being better . . . A loyal thrall bound by blood and sin to further her cause in the name of Iuz and the Temple of Elemental Evil . . . Unless he hot tails back to the Druids and does some pretty heavy atoning (I knew the atonement spell had to be useful one day) quick smart . . . That'd be a whole chapter/story arc in and of itself . . . Aaron
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on May 24, 2013 9:08:47 GMT -8
Do you think the player would be on board for this story arc ? Your earlier posts made it sound like they were a pretty reactionary individual and was hell bent on killing the cleric because she got one over on him. Would you play out the former path ? Just curious. I've just never had much luck/or enjoyment for that matter on following a story into the chaotic EVIL swamps.
The paladin in my Pathfinder game is played by a real world very devout Catholic. I've taken numerous opportunities to talk to him about whats ok/not ok where to take the story. These queries have lead to some really profound conversations about the nature of good, evil, martyrdom, organized religion. Its been a very rewarding game for both of us. He's currently being tempted by a devil in a very Jesus in the desert style..."I'll make sure these innocents go unharmed, your friends and family will be spared...IF you surrender yourself to me. Or simply let your god save you, if he truly cares."
I don't know where it will end up. They are definitely facing overwhelming odds and if the paladin chooses to refuse the offer many innocents will die because of his choice. But if he surrenders himself to the devil he will become an agent of that evil and future innocents will surely suffer.
Its this convoluted, what the fuck do I do now shit that keeps RPG's fun and interesting to my 39 year old grizzled, veteran ass.
Cheers.
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Post by evilgingerdm on May 24, 2013 9:22:24 GMT -8
I'm not sure how attached the Character would really be to his Sister. If he grew up w/o her, not really knowing who she was, and his first encounter with ended with him being a pawn in her Evil plot, He might not have that loving, Family connection.
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Post by Kainguru on May 24, 2013 11:05:51 GMT -8
I was thinking more that he'd have to atone . . . Not that I'd say 'you're CE now so act like it' - more 'you are spiritually troubled and feel the need to seek guidance from your Old Faith mentors'. The atonement bit would be easy . . . Make the tackling and foiling of the plots of the Temple more personal than 'there's gold in them there dungeons'. His victory being not just in defeating the Temple and Zuggtmoy but in winning the day against plots central to his character. The player in question likes to 'be important' in a given story arc . . . Hero or anti-hero doesn't matter it's the being key to the plot device thats important. Another player is already personally invested in seeing the Temples downfall as a matter of honour - his brother and cousin have both died as direct result of Temple activity (they were other PC's - at one point we had a party of 3 dwarves and 1 elf and a human: thus the invention of 'spit on the elf day - which day is that you ask? . . . Everyday is spit in the elf day') Aaron
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on May 24, 2013 11:51:33 GMT -8
Why make it easy ? Make him the center of a plot of Old Faith trying to show how they still "Run The Show In This Here Hommlet!" against the Cuthbertians...(I think that's the NEW faith in ToEE) Now he becomes this poster child of the druids and gets singled out by the new gods followers as 'the problem' even though both sides want the temple brought down. I've always thought this was the lasting strength of ToEE. It isn't just a hack/slash dungeon crawl gold grab. Unless you want it to be...but it has this great potential to be so much more, with various factions vying against one another for its control or destruction. Meanwhile PC's get a chance to slide all over the moral scale with really complex questions with regards to what do we do with kinda evil prisoners freed from the temples dungeons or who's a servant of the temple in the town and who's just a patsy. My first run of the ToEE waaaaaaay back in nineteen hundred and ninety four saw my paladin relaxing in a warm bath at the Welcome Wench after barely making it back to town with half the party bandaged up and flirting in the single digit/negative hit point range. Then the damn assassin showed up with my mighty armored warrior of all that is holy naked and in his cups...we just were so constantly on edge..so paranoid about the various machinations of the temples followers we could never really relax. IT WAS AWESOME! And thats the kind of game I like! Yes there is this dark, epic sweeping story going on in the background. But really when it comes down to it...I start to care just as much about did those prisoners I gave their freedom to ever become a force for good like they promised ? Did the blacksmith take the armor I brought him and develop new found skills of smithing? Do the people of Hommlet feel safer to travel the roads because of my efforts. Its the ability to change the world on a micro scale that I really find satisfying...the big final showdown is great but from session to session I like to see the ripple effect of my actions go out into this world/story we are creating and then come back to me in some form. How does the story concern ME and MY actions. Like I mentioned before good ol' Sir Caramond Elenmire (may he forever rest in peace) met his end never making it to the final showdown but instead was burned to ash deep in the bowels of the temple saving the rest of the party in an epic last stand against some Flame Salamanders... Cheers. Curt.
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Post by Kainguru on May 24, 2013 12:02:43 GMT -8
My first run thru of the Temple circa 1994 as well resulted in Zuggtmoy freed, the cleric dragged back to the abyss with her as she fled the onslaught of the surviving party members. Only two were left standing - a thief who said 'fuck this' gabbed what he could and headed for GreyHawk (cause its way safer than here) and a traumatised half elf paladin (UA rules) who had possession of the orb but could touch it or bear to be near it but could risk the forces of evil finding it . . . He ends up mad a badger deep in Gnarley Woods surrounding himself with all sorts Kurtz style from Heart of Darkness/Apocalyose Now protecting the Orb from all comers . . . Aaron
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Post by SirGuido on May 24, 2013 12:08:32 GMT -8
I think alignment should work like Honor in L5R. You have a sliding scale of 1-10 each level consisting of 10 points. Each time you do something toward the next alignment up, you gain points, when you do something anti-that alignment you lose points. You could have two scales Evil-Neutral-Good, and Chaotic-Neutral-Lawful. a Chaotic Neutral character could have a 1-3.3 in his CNL stat and be considered Chaotic and have a 3.4-6.7in his ENG stat and be considered Neutral. In this case lets say this guy has a 3.1CNL and a 4.1 ENG. If he does the thing you are talking about and you feel that should have consequences then you make him lose a chunk of points(something this serious would be say 9 points of ENG) and drop him down the scale(in this case he's go to 3.2 ENG making him now "Evil"), and in reverse he can go UP the scale by say... rescuing a puppy from a burning building(gaining him maybe 4 points which would take him to 3.6, and back to "Neutral"), and work his way back up.
I've always thought this system was way better than the static "alignment" chart.
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Post by Kainguru on May 26, 2013 6:59:42 GMT -8
I think alignment should work like Honor in L5R. You have a sliding scale of 1-10 each level consisting of 10 points. Each time you do something toward the next alignment up, you gain points, when you do something anti-that alignment you lose points. You could have two scales Evil-Neutral-Good, and Chaotic-Neutral-Lawful. a Chaotic Neutral character could have a 1-3.3 in his CNL stat and be considered Chaotic and have a 3.4-6.7in his ENG stat and be considered Neutral. In this case lets say this guy has a 3.1CNL and a 4.1 ENG. If he does the thing you are talking about and you feel that should have consequences then you make him lose a chunk of points(something this serious would be say 9 points of ENG) and drop him down the scale(in this case he's go to 3.2 ENG making him now "Evil"), and in reverse he can go UP the scale by say... rescuing a puppy from a burning building(gaining him maybe 4 points which would take him to 3.6, and back to "Neutral"), and work his way back up. I've always thought this system was way better than the static "alignment" chart. A seem to dimly recall a similar system offered in either Dragon or WhiteDwarf way back when . . . they mapped the alignment to match the 'known plans of existence' so that one could fall within the realm of those 'tween planes ie: CN(n) would be a chaotic neutral with neutral tendencies with respect to law/chaos and a CN(e) would be one with evil tendencies . . . Aaron
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