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Post by The Northman on May 26, 2013 18:12:51 GMT -8
I, too, recall this system. And being annoyed by a surge of people playing [comicbookguy}Lawful Neutral with Good tendencies[/comcibookguy] characters.
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Post by Kainguru on May 27, 2013 1:08:21 GMT -8
Ah totally inspired now . . . if he goes the way he intends I'm not going to get metagame and say you've taken an alignment hit or even shift by points . . . instead I'm going to RP the consequences of his actions ie: he has his fathers sword which, as he gets closer to the truth of his past, has been 'waking up' and revealing additional powers beyond just being +1. Currently it will bestow strength x1/day and he's aware that it's semi-empathic so it's intelligent. What he doesn't know is that it's neutraly aligned - so the first hint will be an inability to hold the sword without taking damage (as per DMG rules) then I'll hint with troubled dreams etc that all is not well . . . Going to totally steal the 'poster boy' for the 'Old faith' as part of his atonement - as I mentioned in another thread I've just got my hands on the Slaine D20 RPG which has lead me back to my old Slaine comics and a rich source of Celtic/Fantasy Druid Rituals and worship. For those that don't know Slaine is product of the fevered mind of Pat Mills for 2000AD - a Celtic Conan with a dash of Cthulhu (ref: the Elder Gods)and the origin of 'Slough Feg'. I can imagine a huge ceremony at the Grove in Hommlet by moonlight . . . a vast cauldron in which the penitent PC must be immersed to emerge 'reborn' as the champion of the Old Faith in the battle against the Temple . . . this would include the gathering of all the followers of the Old Faith to act as witness and dance naked around the cauldron as Jaroo appears in full Druid regalia ie: deerskin cloak, golden sickle, horsehead mask etc waving around the mistletoe and making solemn and suitably dire proclamations in declaring this penitent their vessel with which to restore natures balance by righting his wrongs in removing the affront to the natural order that is elemental evil. Big crescendo, drums beat,the fire burns high,the attendees loose themselves in the ritual dance crying out in emotional release as the moment nears, lightening marks the night sky as the PC emerges naked from the cauldron . . . Jaroo cloaking him in the mantle of a stag complete with antlers handing him his fathers sword which he can again now grasp without penalty . . . the 'poster boy' of the Old Faith is declared before the Faithful of Hommelet and some (probably) rather perplexed fellow PC's . . . Aaron
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Post by The Northman on May 27, 2013 4:41:31 GMT -8
I like it. Too many people mistake applying logical consequences to actions taken by a character for 'railroading.'
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Post by Kainguru on May 28, 2013 7:15:49 GMT -8
I've been reading up on druidic rituals - I'm going to have a Wickerman!!!!! now I'm hoping the player really does go the way he says he intends to . . . Aaron
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 19, 2013 7:43:45 GMT -8
*Bump* Well a quick update and new advice sought: The PC concerned did slaughter his sister, did have a threatened alignment change, has atoned and become the Champion of Neutrality (The Old Faith vis a vis Druids) and there was a glorious wickerman with obligatory human sacrifice . . . a moment that evil me enjoyed terribly when one player was "did they do that?" and before I could answer another player surprised me by chirpping up "hell yeah, this whole ritual is absolutely historically accurate . . . in fact . . ." - he then went on to detail several other gruesome druid practices. I was just pleased that the effort and research didn't go unnoticed. I digress, the sister in question has been raised from the dead, a contingency planned well in advance and very soon I anticipate another face to face confrontation - she has been active behind the scenes maneuvering agents, recruiting allies and kidnapping significant others (the PC's aren't aware of this reveal yet . . . they will when next they set foot in Hommlet). Assuming the player has learnt from last time and honors his commitment to neutrality two conundrums arise: 1) If the PC decides to try and redeem his sister I let him plead his case . . . how would you guys suggest handling the actual adjudication for success or failure?. If the player is especially eloquent I'll forego mechanics and just go with it . . . though ideas on what criteria one should use to rule a success in this instance would also be useful. 2) The unborn baby was raised with the mother as well - any ideas on the consequences to the infant would be welcome. I was thinking perhaps s/he could be born as a Shade (Monster Manual II). What will definitely NOT happen is that s/he will be born innately evil . . . the circumstances of his/her birth and upbringing will determine that . . . . Aaron (Fucking with PC's since '85)
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 19, 2013 12:43:39 GMT -8
I only use law/chaos.
And it is alignment in the true sense of the word - who have you thrown your lot in with??
It is nothing to do with your personality, and everything to do with the side you have chosen in a cosmic struggle. If you have chosen one.
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Post by jazzisblues on Sept 19, 2013 13:35:01 GMT -8
I only use law/chaos. And it is alignment in the true sense of the word - who have you thrown your lot in with?? It is nothing to do with your personality, and everything to do with the side you have chosen in a cosmic struggle. If you have chosen one. I use a more ambiguous sliding scale based on the stated beliefs of the character. It is entirely subjective and subject to the whims of my feeble understanding and likely to encounter misrepresentations of character based on half information and even misinformation. All of which is very accurate in relation to how other people perceive things about us. In other words the gods and their representatives base their assessments of what the characters do just like everyone else through the crucible of their own perception which is only slightly less flawed than everyone else's. JiB
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 19, 2013 15:40:39 GMT -8
I only use law/chaos. And it is alignment in the true sense of the word - who have you thrown your lot in with?? It is nothing to do with your personality, and everything to do with the side you have chosen in a cosmic struggle. If you have chosen one. How should one adjudicate 'changing sides'? Given that's what the PC will try and do to if he captures his sister . . . though I am assuming a lot. I don't want it to be a story driven outcome, I'd rather the outcome drive the story . . . so there has to be chance of failure/success based on what the PC does to affect an alignment change and, as such, there should be a discriminator to evaluate success/failure such as . . . ? Aaron
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 19, 2013 16:22:32 GMT -8
I only use law/chaos. And it is alignment in the true sense of the word - who have you thrown your lot in with?? It is nothing to do with your personality, and everything to do with the side you have chosen in a cosmic struggle. If you have chosen one. How should one adjudicate 'changing sides'? Given that's what the PC will try and do to if he captures his sister . . . though I am assuming a lot. I don't want it to be a story driven outcome, I'd rather the outcome drive the story . . . so there has to be chance of failure/success based on what the PC does to affect an alignment change and, as such, there should be a discriminator to evaluate success/failure such as . . . ? Aaron You misunderstand. My method effectively ties alignment to individual patrons or factions. It is like working for anybody - if you screw them over they will be pissed. Just behaving badly doesn't cause your halo to turn into horns. I makes your superiors annoyed. So if you have aligned with the forces of law, via a pact with a lawful cosmic entity - and you then flout the rules and cause utter mayhem - that cosmic entity is going to be PISSED. Your alignment doesn't magically change. You have to be booted out (or forsaken if it's a deity), and you are then back to nuetral. But this is character driven - there is no omnicient presence that sees you murder a baby and changes your alignment for you.
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 20, 2013 7:25:32 GMT -8
Ummm I still think the point is being missed . . . what I'm asking is how SHE might be convinced to change, given the background I've supplied earlier. She could remain a raving adherent to CE or convinced to realign herself along a more neutral path. IF the PC is uber convincing then it's easy . . . if it's border line I'd rather lean on some mechanics to make an adjudication (ie a randomiser) rather than DM caveat to tell the story ie: I want the event to make the story not create an event to fit a predetermined story - if it's borderline i want the outcome to be as much a surprise for me as for the PC . . . Aaron
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 20, 2013 14:31:39 GMT -8
Ummm I still think the point is being missed . . . what I'm asking is how SHE might be convinced to change, given the background I've supplied earlier. She could remain a raving adherent to CE or convinced to realign herself along a more neutral path. IF the PC is uber convincing then it's easy . . . if it's border line I'd rather lean on some mechanics to make an adjudication (ie a randomiser) rather than DM caveat to tell the story ie: I want the event to make the story not create an event to fit a predetermined story - if it's borderline i want the outcome to be as much a surprise for me as for the PC . . . Aaron It has to be character driven. From her perspective - WIIFM (What's In It For Me)? What does she actually want out of all this?? I can see in your posts all the crazy evil shit she has done. But what does she actually want, and/or care about?? I think that would be a good starting point for figuring out how she could be swayed. Depending on the answer - maybe she simply can't??
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 20, 2013 16:04:13 GMT -8
She wants to corrupt her brother, so that he will walk with her embracing the shared ethos of CE. Like Vader wanted with Luke . . . Aaron
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 20, 2013 21:54:41 GMT -8
She wants to corrupt her brother, so that he will walk with her embracing the shared ethos of CE. Like Vader wanted with Luke . . . Aaron Then I suppose the question is - what does she care about more? Being CE (whatever she happens to get out of that) or her brother? She has been murdered by him once already (and wasn't she preggers too?) so she must surely now be a mortal enemy forged in the crucible of hatred. Might be time for her to do some murdering of her own.
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 20, 2013 22:26:41 GMT -8
She goaded him into killing . . . knowing she had a raise dead on standby, she even has a hired bodyguard tasked with doing exactly that - guarding her (then) dead body. She hoped such a wontonly evil act would tip her brother over to the cause of evil. She didn't count on him seeking redemption and affirming his commitment to neutrality - she didn't count on the Druids basically. Though she very nearly succeeded . . . It was touch and go for bit with the PC/Player. She's about to try to murder him back but risks being captured. Aaron
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Post by guitarspider on Sept 21, 2013 13:25:01 GMT -8
Maybe reconsider her purpose?
Sounds to me like she's very close to impossible to turn towards good. Terrible deeds on the basis of twisted worldview, which came into being to cover huge trauma, how is the player supposed to get beyond that? I mean, wouldn't that require her to admit that basically everything she's ever thought and done was wrong?
So, her brother seems to be suspectible to evil, why not see if she can slowly poison his mind if the obvious way didn't work? Murdering him back won't help her corrupt him.
So maybe she lets herself be captured or she offers to meet her brother to talk? I'd suggest just roleplaying it, have her slowly cave in, then have her tearfully admit how wrong she was. Then you can either use her as a threat from within the group's circle or, if there are some new reasons for her not to be completely horrible after all, possibly changing her plan to slowly turn her brother, you can adjust as needed. I don't know what that might be, but you know the character much better, so maybe there's something she might see or hear that would change her mind after all. The way she sounds to me I guess she'll never be a paragon of virtue, but maybe not-quite-as-horrible is achievable for the player?
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