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Post by Kainguru on Sept 21, 2013 21:23:09 GMT -8
Lol. The players PC's are no paragons of virtue either - they're CN or True Neutral and it shows: 'murder hobos'. Hell they even took a cursed item, a bag of devouring, and made it useful: to clean up corpses and use as a method of interrogation/intimidation (ie: "tell us what we need to know or go feet first into 'chompy'" - that's the name they've given it including painting a smiley face on the outside of the bag) Aaron EDIT: I think I've come up with a way to resolve/inform a borderline decision - I'm going to out right steal (again, I've already lifted the advantage/disadvantage mechanic)) from D&DNext: opposed ability checks vis a vis her Wisdom (as willpower) vs his Charisma (as persuasion)
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Post by guitarspider on Sept 22, 2013 10:33:04 GMT -8
Well, bad choice of words maybe, but read "good" as "anything not quite as horrible as the sister" and maybe it makes more sense
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 22, 2013 13:03:25 GMT -8
Well, bad choice of words maybe, but read "good" as "anything not quite as horrible as the sister" and maybe it makes more sense Yeah I kinda built her pretty Evil with a capital 'E' - but look at the very short yard stick I was given to measure against . . . Aaron
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Sept 22, 2013 14:06:37 GMT -8
Oooh this makes me think maybe you should put some goody-goody do-gooders after the sister.
Maybe hunting her down for some of the things she has done. I wonder if the PC's would come to the rescue......
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Post by jazzisblues on Sept 22, 2013 14:13:00 GMT -8
This entire discussion is one of the reasons why I don't even deal with alignment in my games. Hell, the games I run there's no such thing as alignment. What there is lots of is choices. We makes choices and we lives with the consequences.
JiB
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Post by Kainguru on Sept 28, 2013 5:42:35 GMT -8
'The Ilse Witch' by Terry Brooks is the closest literary archetype I can quote to describe the sister. In those books she is redeemed by her brother but struggles to find peace within herself until she makes a supremely grand gesture. Of all the Terry Brooks novels this was my favourite 'Shanarra' cycle (The Voyage of the Jerle Shanarra series). As such it's has, rather than probably, informed game play. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilse_WitchAaron
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2013 12:43:46 GMT -8
The thing with alignment is, people "punish" not using it, this is wrong thinking, alignment is a description, not a game rule. If they start acting like another alignment all the time, tell them to change it on thier character sheet.
This is what the system even said to do in 3.x editions of D&D
as far as chaotic netureal, this may be helpful:http://easydamus.com/chaoticneutral.html
"A chaotic neutral character follows his whims." - Seems like killing a pregnant woman is well within what Chaotic Neutral entails.
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 11, 2013 13:18:34 GMT -8
The thing with alignment is, people "punish" not using it, this is wrong thinking, alignment is a description, not a game rule. If they start acting like another alignment all the time, tell them to change it on thier character sheet. This is what the system even said to do in 3.x editions of D&D as far as chaotic netureal, this may be helpful:http://easydamus.com/chaoticneutral.html "A chaotic neutral character follows his whims." - Seems like killing a pregnant woman is well within what Chaotic Neutral entails. Except when he's an old school (ie AD&D 1e) Bard and therefore tied into the Druid religious ethos . . . so liable to judgement by his Patron deity. In Greyhawk 'The Old Faith' is basically an Earth Mother/Moon Goddess/Father Sun type religion. The main deity venerated is Beory but as she is too far removed from the realms of Men (elves, dwarves, hobbits etc) to actually grant divine powers (spells) so this is done through her lesser aspects/children ie: Ehlonna of the Forest and Obad Hai the Shalm. Neither of these personages would take kindly to such an act and thus there would have to be consequences. If the Player were just a fighter or a magic user then fair enough chaotic neutral is as chaotic neutral does. I actually like the original Bard class because of it's ties with Druidic faith . . . less of a foppish wandering minstrel(as promoted by 2e onwards) and more the militant and propaganda arm of Druid pantheon. The later being more representative, to me, of what a 'Bard' is - my view being based on the pre-Roman Welsh and Celtic/Irish traditions as well as the Norse Skalds (warrior poets). Rename the 2e onward Bard to Minstrel (or it's equivalent eg: troubador?), insert a proper old school flavor Bard, and I'm happy. 3e did this in the Living Greyhawk Gazetter - tucked away at the back - plus I believe there was a similar Prestige class released later on. Aaron
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Post by Deleted on Oct 17, 2013 6:53:41 GMT -8
The thing with alignment is, people "punish" not using it, this is wrong thinking, alignment is a description, not a game rule. If they start acting like another alignment all the time, tell them to change it on thier character sheet. This is what the system even said to do in 3.x editions of D&D as far as chaotic netureal, this may be helpful:http://easydamus.com/chaoticneutral.html "A chaotic neutral character follows his whims." - Seems like killing a pregnant woman is well within what Chaotic Neutral entails. Except when he's an old school (ie AD&D 1e) Bard and therefore tied into the Druid religious ethos . . . so liable to judgement by his Patron deity. In Greyhawk 'The Old Faith' is basically an Earth Mother/Moon Goddess/Father Sun type religion. The main deity venerated is Beory but as she is too far removed from the realms of Men (elves, dwarves, hobbits etc) to actually grant divine powers (spells) so this is done through her lesser aspects/children ie: Ehlonna of the Forest and Obad Hai the Shalm. Neither of these personages would take kindly to such an act and thus there would have to be consequences. If the Player were just a fighter or a magic user then fair enough chaotic neutral is as chaotic neutral does. I actually like the original Bard class because of it's ties with Druidic faith . . . less of a foppish wandering minstrel(as promoted by 2e onwards) and more the militant and propaganda arm of Druid pantheon. The later being more representative, to me, of what a 'Bard' is - my view being based on the pre-Roman Welsh and Celtic/Irish traditions as well as the Norse Skalds (warrior poets). Rename the 2e onward Bard to Minstrel (or it's equivalent eg: troubador?), insert a proper old school flavor Bard, and I'm happy. 3e did this in the Living Greyhawk Gazetter - tucked away at the back - plus I believe there was a similar Prestige class released later on. Aaron If you think his god/mother nature would have a problem with that type of behavior, the character's alignment may need to be brought into question. When a cleric or paladin goes against their deity consistently with their behavior they lose some class abilities. In early editions there was even an Atonement spell for just that situation. I wouldn't say the player was playing the alignment incorrectly, but it might be time for their patron deity to have a "talk" with them by removing abilities, spirit quests, bad dreams or "forced" alignment change due to being shown the "error of their ways"
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 17, 2013 8:06:25 GMT -8
Well I did deal with his first violation that way - no enforced alignment change just certain things no longer worked properly - like being unable to hold his fathers sword without incurring damage (the sword is intelligent with a true neutral alignment - he doesn't know how intelligent yet as I am only revealing different abilities as he progresses along the path of uncovering the truth of what happened to his family/father and why he was sent away to study with the druids/bards of Gnarley Forest). There were other omens as well - dogs shying etc until he atoned - as referenced in the Druid ceremony I mention above (with wickermen and all the proper Druid stuff - because Druids don't have access to the atone spell in 1e so I fudged it a bit making it the players choice to comply and finish the assigned task rather than being compelled in anyway) Aaron
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 17, 2013 17:04:11 GMT -8
I definitely like the style your games take. Things are very shades of grey(but not FIFTY!). Subtly is a very hard concept to get across sometimes but what it does is allow that bad ass sense of dread and what the fuck is going on ?
The moments when Temple of elemental evil really shine are those bizarre lovecraftian moments...dogs shying away is just beautiful !
This reminds me of my friends pathfinder game I'm in playing a wizard...Wierd dreams and deals just to get a water breathing spell. This is when RPGs get to really flaunt their true separation from MMOs.
Keep letting us know how this goes!
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 18, 2013 2:42:06 GMT -8
D.T. Pints - aww thanks for the compliment. One of the good things about this sub-forum is being able to discuss and reveal plots and plans and get suitable critique in return - without spoilers for the players. One of the hardest things to do - especially with a slow burn campaign - is avoiding the temptation to 'just get it all out there' because if you'll burst if you don't. I stole the slow burn start straight from the pages of 2000AD. For years they've run epics that have been months in the build up with small hints and bits of foreshadowing until suddenly BANG!!! The shit suddenly gets real. An excellent example of it was back in the 90's - Dredd 'Necropolis'. They ran a parallel story for months - 'Tale of the Deadman' then BANG big surprise, huge reveal, two separate stories were suddenly one big megaepic. The Dark Judges have taken over MegaCity 1 and are ruthlessly culling the citizens, Dredd and McGruder are revealed as the only Judges not possessed and being controlled because they were absent from the city at the time . . . It's well worth picking up the graphic novel for that saga as a 'how to' guide in keeping up the pace while unobtrusively fanning the flames of the real fire slowly. Aaron
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Oct 18, 2013 8:23:32 GMT -8
I will have the wife see if our bookstore can get it. You've definitely sold 2000AD with me. The "how to" slow burn should be a show topic. The four hour con game will NEVER achieve this (there was a bit of it in your Strontium Dogs, and I failed miserably with my Dark Heresy game). I am really hoping that in Stu's L5R game there will be a final 'OH SHIT!" moment, he seems to have quite the poker face (at least as gleaned from listening to the APs) as a GM. shows like Breaking Bad, Walking Dead, etc...have really shown the power of building to these BIG REVEAL moments that really will resonate for years with a gaming group/viewing audience. Its what makes all the "spoiler ridiculousness" actually make sense. We are watching Walking Dead now on Netflix (binge watching really) and I am VERY glad to have never heard any of the reveals before hand. Its been great to experience these moments with no inkling of what was coming. I've only read a few of the graphic novels. moral ambiguity plays out best when its allowed to be viewed over a large spectrum...what maybe 10+ sessions. Then the player really gets the chance to explore the boundaries of what it means to them be 'beyond good and evil' . We just might have to give some consideration to starting an across the pond "10 session campaign" sir! Cheers, Curt J.
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 19, 2013 6:14:58 GMT -8
Definitely a show topic - the 'slow burn' Campaign. I think con prep, one shots etc have been covered to death for the moment. A 10+ google+ Campaign? That definitely piques my interest Now I hope the great gods of Rebellion Publishing are blind at the moment. I'm going to reorder my e-comic of Necropolis so that it reads the way it was published originally and up it to my google drive for download. The official compilation screwed up the order badly and ruined the impact of the original epic. But as I read it 'as it happened' it can be fixed with a small effort. Aaron
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Post by Kainguru on Oct 21, 2013 6:45:50 GMT -8
Temple of Elemental Update: (cause D.T. Pints asked ) So after a long battle, the magic user firing a fireball into the middle of the main melee - knocking himself, the evil sister several others into the negatives (including turning the Cleric of Ehlonna's befriended wolves into dead hotdogs) - the party stagger back towards Hommlet to regroup with the sister, and her assistant, as a prisoners On the way they decide against stopping in Nulb - so my printed battlemat wasn't used. Instead they camp half to Hommlet. They awaken to find the sisters cavalier retainer (CE - half-elf 'Selina Wildsmith') doing what cavaliers do best: assembling a huge rescue force to retake her employer. Two brilliant things happen: the bard brother offers the mercenaries more money to change sides - they accept the money and offer to 'go on their way, not our fight anymore'. The dwarf challenges the cavalier to a one on one combat of honour (to defeat not death) - they both cheat (she has uses a protection from magic scroll which renders permanently useless 60% of the dwarfs magic arsenal, including his bag of holding which spontaneously disgorges all it's contents. The dwarf uses a potion of speed, which survives the protection from magic effect). 5 rounds later the dwarf wins by a whisper (one more good hit and it would have been a very different outcome) - the cavalier yields and takes her forces and retires from the field (to pass into campaign history until their paths might cross again). However, she gave no promises about the other half of her force - the ettin and the hill giant: they were sent by the Temple to accompany her but, not being her retainers, she isn't accountable for what they might choose to do after she and her retinue depart. She also makes several offers for the PC's to consider changing sides as they have proved themselves effective and it could be "a more satisfying vocational choice". The hill giants and ettin attack - they party defends itself and finally wins thru. They return to Hommlet with the still critically injured sister (from the earlier fireball - she's been healed but spent time 'at deaths door') at last. At that point they learn several things - war has erupted in the north and the south. Iuz has attacked Furyondy, in part because the players actions at the Temple have forced him to accelerate his plans (not that the PC's or Players are aware of that). The Pomarj has commenced pressing on the borders of Celene. All the characters begin to question, given their various national identities, what their roles should be and where their loyalties lie in the upcoming wars (The GreyHawk Wars has now been foreshadowed but I'm not following canon . . . I'm going to let the players fight it out in the GreyHawk Wars strategy game and the end result will be taken as gospel for what happens next). The dwarf informs the party that they are doing exactly what the likes of them do during a war - fighting the good fight as a specialist combat unit that takes out specific targets (ie special ops) and their target is the Temple (given the forces that were being assembled to deal with its re-emergence have had to be retasked to defend the frontlines to the north and south) As he says "if we do no more than check its growth we have served our purpose for it is evident that it (The Temple) was supposed to divide and weaken the forces here as part of a bigger plan". He's right . . . They've only just now realised that they are directly meddling in the affairs of Gods and Monsters - that what started as 'troublesome bandits' near an insignificant border village is having repercussions on a scale that effects the fate of nations. The elven magic user (from Celene and travelling incognito) also learns that his long absent mentor (a currently exiled and active opponent of Celene's isolationist policies) was last last seen taking to the field of battle, with his entourage, to the north and in direct confrontation with Iuz (who was rumoured to be astride a black dragon during that engagement). Though the forces of Iuz were held back it was at a great cost - his mentors whereabouts and fate remains unknown How best to achieve their goal of defeating the Temple? The characters know they need to know their enemy, they need intelligence . . . They need the information only their two prisoners can provide . . . To be honest, what happened next was a delightful surprise (for me at least) . . . (to be continued) Aaron
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