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Post by Kainguru on May 28, 2013 10:26:09 GMT -8
I mentioned in another post that though I avoid the Paladin class I'd probably play it really well. Most paladins tend to played by players that put the stupid in lawful good. A good example of badass lawful good is Judge Dredd - he's not lawful neutral as one might at first think because: In the cursed earth saga he keeps tweaks origins a secret despite being asked. He also honours a convicted felon as a comrade when he falls during their final ride across the cursed earth to save mega city two. He also commutes Robert Booths sentence to life hard labour, despite the previous sentence known as the judgment of Solomon, as an act of mercy He opposes Chief Judge Cal and leads the resistance as a matter of 'good and moral judgement' He choose to assassinate Chief Judge Griffin personally during the apocalypse war when Griffin is brainwashed and used as a propaganda tool by the Sovs. He does this because 'it's what Griffin would have wanted' He spends the prologue to Necropolis questioning the conduct of the Judges under Chief Judge Silver and has concerns about the pro democracy movement oppressed instead of negotiated with. He resigns and takes the long walk coming back as the Dead Man to save mega city one. He later forced a referendum on democracy despite protests from the justice dept. He deliberately sabotages the mechanismo project as he believed robotic law enforcement is not good for the city. He opposes Chief Judge McGruder openly over this later and risks being sent to Titan He takes an aged McGruder out on 'one last run' knowing in her condition she'll die - he does this against dept regulations because 'she deserves to go at as she lived fighting for the law not quietly euthanised in her sleep' His contact with cursed earth mutants causes him to force an agenda for change to treat them as equals and people despite knowing that the law opposes it and he risks his career to do so Recently he lied to the Chief Judge to maintain cover in revealing a conspiracy at the heart of the justice dept. He's lawful, he acts for the greater good but he's not stupid and he's motherfucking badass!!!! Thoughts? Aaron
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Post by stork on May 28, 2013 13:36:58 GMT -8
If he is a Paladin, he serves a dark and vengeful god.
We have talked a bit about this on the podcast before, where Paladins are chosen by a god, and clerics choose to serve a god.
And that brings up the point of whether the deity you serve is a Lawful good deity. Being a Paladin for a particular god means you do his will on the material plane, in return for powers and his protection. If you do something that he would be displeased with, you run the risk of losing your powers.
So if you serve a neutral god, and you go around doing Lawful Good things, I would have that god abandon you until you prove you can be a good little avatar and spread his name by crushing his enemies, seeing them driven before you, and hear the lamentation of the women.
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Post by Arcona on May 28, 2013 13:48:05 GMT -8
Judge Dredd is indeed not Lawful Neutral. He is clearly Lawful Evil.
There are more than 1 ways to play a paladin. Lawful Good and Paladin are not synonymus. One can be a Lawful Good fighter but that doesnt mean they are a paladin... and vice versa.
I generally prefer the Paladins that hate using their weapons, will not kill even the evil creature that just harmed them without sincerely trying to redeem them etc.
In the scenario:
"You know for a fact (doesnt matter how, lets assume you do) that the infant before you though innocent now will cause the destruction of the world as it will become the vessel for Tanaari and Baatezu to split into the Prime Material plane. You know this clearly and you also now that in time the child will grow to become a powerful and uttetly evil Prince that will bring the above apocalypse knowingly and willingly. You have one chance to stop the death of billions by killing the child now. What do you do?"
A Lawful Good fighter could potentially indeed kill the child. A Paladin never would. Cause its innocent.
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Post by Kainguru on May 28, 2013 14:20:41 GMT -8
No he's not lawful evil. Seriously. He maybe a fascist but so was the Roman Republic. He serves his city and it's citizens as a collective first and foremost. He has opposed the democracy movement only because it failed before hand. He and McGruder bought about the first election to choose between democracy or the justice dept. Dredd believed that the citizens would choose the security of the justice dept over democracy and he was right. He has been firm in dispensing justice but he always dispenses it within the law and without prejudice. He has repeatedly turned down the office of Chief Judge because he believes he can SERVE the city better on the streets. He has shown leniency and compassion. He has even accepted exceptions to the law when it seems justified or serves the ideal of justice. Ignore the Dredd from the 90's movie that's not the Dredd of the comics. Lawful Evil were the Judda who Dredd defeated. Time and again what Dredd does is for the greater good. In the Judge Child saga he ends up abandoning the predicted chosen one, against justice dept orders, because he sees that the Judge Child had become corrupt and such a creature could not serve the good of the citizens of mega city one only enslave and punish. Throughout the nineties we saw an ageing Dredd begin to question the justice dept - a direct result if the events in the series 'America'. He is troubled by Chief Judge Silvers use of harsh oppression and covert operations to counter the problems of the city. Eventually he is so sickened by it all he takes the long walk into the cursed earth (judge retirement). When he is nearly burned alive by the sisters of Judge Death - Phobia and Nausea - he realises that mega city one is in peril. He fears for its citizens rather than just the city - so he returns to fight the Dark Judges. Afterwards he stays and rejoins the justice dept 'because running from the problems of the system won't solve them or serve the city any better'. He repeatedly pursues without compromise Judges who fall short of the standards expected of a Judge - those that bulky, harass, are corrupt or fail to serve the citizens. He has frequently stripped a Judge of their uniform if he finds out they've used excessive force . . . He's a bastard yeah but he's not evil he's a man at war every day because 'crime doesn't take a holiday' and every citizen is a potential perp. As to the scenario above - The Judge Child Saga leaves Dredd with that choice at the end. He doesn't kill Owen Krysler he leaves him on the far off planet of Xanadu where he found him. It would have saved a lot of trouble had he executed the Judge Child then and there but he didn't . . . Aaron
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daniel
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Post by daniel on May 28, 2013 14:44:00 GMT -8
On the subject of Paladins and how i feel they should be played i think the perfect example of a classic paladin done right is Michael Carpenter out of the Dresden Files. he is also probably the only literary example i can think of a Paladin done absolutely right.
Judge Dredd - I disagree with the assessment of him as a paladin, he is a Fighter with principles at no point is there any assumption of any sort of holly investment. Be that good or evil, so no he is not a Paladin he is a warrior with a strong lawful moral grounding.
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Post by Arcona on May 28, 2013 14:50:42 GMT -8
The idea of every citizen as a potential perp and the greater good is paramount Lawful Evil in my book...
And just because on occasion you are not evil (i.e. occasional leniency) doesnt make you non evil!
Evil laws (Draconian laws for example) are no excuse. He is definetly Lawful, not judging that... but good? An exaggeration!
Its much like the Tau in 40k (or even the Imperium).
"We execute you because what you have seen might harm others. You are not really corrupted by chaos... yet... but best be safe than sorry eh? In any case the pain from burning you alive should leave your soul pristine, clean and ready to meet the Emperor!" say the Inquisitors as they doom planets to Exterminatus...
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Post by Kainguru on May 28, 2013 14:52:03 GMT -8
Well he exists in a godless universe. There are godlike beings but they are not gods per se. He is clone grown to serve the city and Justice - so in that way he is chosen. His genetic profile was selected as being the best to be a judge. He wasn't selected for consideration into the academy of law, he was decanted specifically to be a judge Aaron
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on May 28, 2013 15:15:46 GMT -8
So by the logic that Judge Dredd is Lawful Good because he upholds the laws of his land, you would have to say a person that upholds pre-civil war slavery laws in the USA is a good person since they are abiding by the law.
Sorry, not buying that argument at all. Judge Dredd is certainly Lawful, but Good? No Way.
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Post by Kainguru on May 28, 2013 15:28:32 GMT -8
So by the logic that Judge Dredd is Lawful Good because he upholds the laws of his land, you would have to say a person that upholds pre-civil war slavery laws in the USA is a good person since they are abiding by the law. Sorry, not buying that argument at all. Judge Dredd is certainly Lawful, but Good? No Way. That's just it in the comics he doesn't always up holds the law as written He's taken the long walk because he disagreed He forced equal rights for mutants because he knew it right and the laws as they stood were wrong He opposed a tyrant even tho he was the Chief Judge He sabotaged the mechanismo project because he knew it was wrong not illegal just wrong He's unpopular in the justice dept because he will pursue an agenda for change He's been tasked by his clone father to change the system. A private conversation between him and Fargo as Fargo lay dying - "it wasn't supposed to be like this Joe, this wasn't what we wanted". Note that a young Dredd fought in the civil war that bought about the Justice Dept and abolished democracy alongside Fargo. Because democracy had led to the holocaust that is the cursed earth. As the stories continue he is agitating for change . . . His pro mutant stance being the first step that nearly destroyed him and almost cost him his career as a Judge being forced into exile administering justice to cursed earth encampments. It a common mistake that people think Dredd only follows the law as written as being what his character is about. It not and never has been . . . He serves his city, and therefore it's citizens, first and foremost. If he has a god it's mega city one and its well being. It's his city and he'll die defending it . . . The latest crises in the Dredd universe is the devastation of mega city one - his concern is not failing the law it's that the judges and himself failed the city and it's citizens. For Dredd the good of the many out weighs the good of the few. The laws are draconian by necessity not choice. In the justice dept there are corrupt individuals that use the law to promote their personal power - Dredds unpopularity in the dept is because he opposes these people and is incorruptible. Unlike a lawful evil person he puts his city and it's citizens before himself. If he were lawful evil he'd have accepted the position of chief judge already as its been offered many times. He even fought for the idea that the chief judge should be elected not chosen by the inner council - another stand that represented a change in the system against the laws as written Plus Dredd feels guilt and remorse. He regrets the nuking of the Sov Block during the apocalypse war - specifically the innocents. But as he reasons it was war and it was their city or his - the Sov Block having already blown magacity one to hell with nukes. He also feels regret about the death of Judge Lopez during the Judge Child mission . . . Something he has only ever admitted to Chief Judge Hersey As to every citizen being a potential perp? That's just pragmatism. Mega city one is a hot house environment with over 90% unemployment. It's a future city born out of the need to survive not out of luxury. Resources are limited. Judges are few. Criminals rule the streets without the judges to stop them Aaron
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Post by kaitoujuliet on May 28, 2013 16:48:16 GMT -8
A question has just occurred to me: why are paladins considered so much harder to play than clerics? I mean, it seems they should both suffer from the same problem, since both classes are bound up with serving deities and striving to do righteous deeds. And although the popular image of the cleric is as a healer, it's certainly been possible at various stages of D&D's history (to say nothing of other games that include the class) to build a battle cleric who can smite foes.
All that said, I guess I'm just lucky. The paladin in my (on-hiatus) fantasy game is not stupid, self-righteous, or any of the other popular images of the badly played paladin.
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Post by Kainguru on May 28, 2013 17:22:30 GMT -8
My contention, I suppose, in creating this topic is that the trope tends to draw players to the class that shouldn't actually play that class - and it keeps getting reinforced by its repetition. My use of Judge Dredd, strictly as he appears in the comics, is an attempt to generate a different trope that would make the class attractive to a different sort of player who I would hope would not fall into the lawful stupid range. Break the mould so to speak . . . give Paladins a harder edge and remove the self righteousness so common with many Paladins (not all but enough for it to be perceived as a common problem). I think there is also a lack of properly identifying many characters of literature as having Paladin like qualities in terms of conduct not powers. Instead it's a few sparse good examples and a lot of very bad stereotypes - Dudley DoRights etc. I still maintain that Dredd as written is not evil . . . I know that a lot of comic pundits have read a few issues and written reviews that cast his character as a fascist inflexible law confined anally retentive bully boy. The fascist is true as the strict definition of fascism - strength through unity and the whole is stronger than the individual (thus the bundled sticks supporting an axe handle as the traditional fascist symbol). Yes as originally conceived by J Wagner Dredd was an anti hero etc. However Dredd lasted longer than expected (Dan Dare was supposed to be the big star if 2000AD) and the character quickly evolved beyond it original concept . . . However the original concept statement by its creator tends to be the source that gets used when pundits describe the character. That was 35 years ago . . . a lot of character development has occurred since then including a recent major retrofitting of the characters past and origins. I think there are other examples of smart Paladin's in the world of TV comics and books beyond the few that tend to get used (Lancelot . . . Yawn) Aaron
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on May 28, 2013 17:25:05 GMT -8
Well, correct me if I am wrong, but isn't a character who is willing to ignore the rules (whatever they may be) and follow his/her own moral compass to what he/she believes is right Chaotic Good, not Lawful Good. Under that definition, given your argument that Dredd "does what he thinks is right", wouldn't that make him Chaotic Good?
I thought to be Lawful you needed to follow a strict code, and to be Lawful Good that needed to be a "Good" code.
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Post by Kainguru on May 28, 2013 17:33:03 GMT -8
No code name V is chaotic good. Lawful good by AD&D 1e definition is putting the needs of the many before the few - serving the greater good. Lawful doesn't mean following the Laws of man. If so then a Paladin would be fucked everytime he entered an evil province - 'the laws say x y and z is legal so I cannot oppose it? '. A lawful person tries to preserve the system - sometimes by opposing it and forcing it to change because the person still believed in the system just that it needs improving/changing. A chaotic wants to over throw the system and replace it - again like Code Name V And Dredd does follow a code that's why he frequently opposes the justice dept. His code is that his city comes first, he serves mega city one and thereby it's citizens first and foremost. His service is the preservation of mega city one and the security of its citizens which includes protecting them from each other - how is that evil? His god is mega city one it's charges the citizens it's servants the judges. Mega city one cannot survive without its citizens they are integral to its existence. Plus Dredd rather famously does have a code which justifies his actions . . . It's written down in book called Dredd's Comportment. It's compulsory reading at the academy of law but it's often misinterpreted or rather it's meaning distorted by others with a less selfless agenda. Dredd's actions have always been in accordance with his comportment It is precisely the conflict between his comportment and the actions of the justice dept under chief judge Silver that lead to his resignation and taking the long walk. Aaron
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on May 28, 2013 18:18:43 GMT -8
Ah, I was using the alignment descriptions from Pathfinder as my basis. I guess we should have mentioned that earlier, given our differing basis for alignments that whole discussion was basically pointless. I think that under Pathfinder I would probably say Dredd would fit into Lawful Neutral the best...though even that is a bit of a leap.
I agree, that as you describe Dredd and as you describe your definition for LG I would say Dredd seems to fit...in a rather odd but interesting way.
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Post by henryhankovitch on May 28, 2013 18:25:31 GMT -8
In the scenario: "You know for a fact (doesnt matter how, lets assume you do) that the infant before you though innocent now will cause the destruction of the world as it will become the vessel for Tanaari and Baatezu to split into the Prime Material plane. You know this clearly and you also now that in time the child will grow to become a powerful and uttetly evil Prince that will bring the above apocalypse knowingly and willingly. You have one chance to stop the death of billions by killing the child now. What do you do?" You dickpunch your GM for dragging out the lameass baby-killing contrivance. The Deed of Paksenarrion is basically the perfect example of paladins done right. (And it's a really good trilogy besides.) Not to say that all paladins must think and act the same; but it's the antidote to decades of morally-challenged neckbeard shenanigans.
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