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Post by inflatus on Feb 3, 2012 9:58:06 GMT -8
When I first played GURPS the card board cutouts were used. That was as "mini" as we got. I only had the players use them if they wanted to, otherwise it was "imagination". I never really used minis much after the 2nd Edition of GURPS.
I can see how they may detract from roleplaying. I may give systems that use minis heavily a try and test out the theory myself.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 3, 2012 10:34:24 GMT -8
When I first played GURPS the card board cutouts were used. That was as "mini" as we got. I only had the players use them if they wanted to, otherwise it was "imagination". I never really used minis much after the 2nd Edition of GURPS. I can see how they may detract from roleplaying. I may give systems that use minis heavily a try and test out the theory myself. We're playing GURPS in a modern day supernatural investigation game by Mook and we have "minis" (spiffy little wooden game pieces with pics of our characters attached) though in the one combat we had in the last game we didn't use them we just described what we were doing and went with it. I personally felt no lacking of understanding of what was going on at any point, but then we all know that Mook is a f'ing genius and is not bound by the same laws of physics that hinder the rest of us. Cheers, JiB
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Post by daeglan on Feb 3, 2012 20:11:08 GMT -8
My experience and the reason I prefer miniatures is because often I find the GM's description of the layout during combat lacks the info I need to plan. And even if I do play 20 questions my expectation and the GMs do not see eye to eye. Who do I attack first? Where is the cover to hide behind? Where is the rough terrain that hinders movement? Can I get above my opponents? is there a bottleneck I can take advantage of? The way to solve that problem is, in my opinion, in the hands of the gm. Err first on the side of the player characters and second on driving the story forward. Put in that order on purpose because the player characters are the heroes of the story. One thing that occurred to me on the way home from the podcast the other night is that the more tactically minded the players are the more they are going to want minis which is totally fine. My experience though is that when the minis hit the table rp tends to diminish. If your experience is different that's awesome and you are more skilled or more fortunate than I. JiB Why not use all the tools you guys talked about to get more role play? Why does the RP have to stop when minis come out? There is no reason why role play should stop or diminish just because we have minis on the table. I see this as a situation where one should be able to have their cake and eat it too. I also prefer having actual terrain. Buildings one can use to gain height advantage etc. Ask how people hit. Flank people who don't maneuver etc.
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Post by inflatus on Feb 3, 2012 20:19:04 GMT -8
JiB
Now I could get behind the wooden minis. That sounds cool.
I think that some people cannot function without minis and a battle map. Those players are the ones that cannot role play once the minis come out. The system does however dictate how much minis get involved. I have not played 4th Ed of D&D but I think it is supposed to be mini and map heavy in combat.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Feb 3, 2012 21:33:22 GMT -8
I don't think that anyone is saying that RPing has to stop when the minis and maps come out, daeglan. Only that it tends to stop. I certainly found that to be the case when I was playing D&D 4e, but I imagine the same thing would happen with any system that makes heavy use of a battlemat.
I found the square-based movement and measurements really limiting. Several time either myself or other players attempted to have their characters do something heroic, only to find out we were several squares short of our target or that the Power we were attempting to use didn't work that way. The GM of the game tried to appease us by saying things like "Go ahead and move those last few squares." or "We'll let the Power work that way this time." but I found it unsatisfying.
Handwaving things like that is a slippery slope. Once you start doing it, players start to expect it more often and the rules start to break down. Yet if the GM sticks to the rules as written and enforces square-based movement things start to feel more like a boardgame and can become less heroic and cinematic.
That's why I personally prefer mapless games where distances are approximated. When players move their characters, I say things like "It looks like it'll take you two turns to get over there." or "You can make it that far, but you won't be able to do anything else this turn." If exact distances are really important for the action the PC is attempting, I sketch out a quick map with dimensions on it. More and more I believe that characters should be allowed to try anything and everything, provided it's within reason and appropriate for the tone and setting of the game. I feel that all aspects of a game should be treated in a similar way. You don't bust out a battlemat when the characters are engaging in a verbal battle, yet social combats can be just as dangerous as physical ones. Read A Song of Ice and Fire if you don't believe me. Or watch the HBO series. I always argue that the social characters like Circe and Littlefinger are just as, if not more dangerous than the physical characters. Now I'm not saying that physical combats and social combats have to use the same mechanics, it just bothers me when half of a book is devoted to beating people up while the rules for verbally manipulation them fits onto a single page.
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Post by daeglan on Feb 6, 2012 12:59:17 GMT -8
Role playing stopping when minis come out. GM stop not role playing. If the GM continues to role play and expect role play it will happen.
What we have done in our games is removed the grid entirely. It is not needed. tape measure is all you really need. To address the measuring tactics think. No measuring before you declare and commit to doing your action.
As to the moving to base contact and slugging it out. Again if the GM does not do this neither will the players.
What I see is all the objections about role play stopping can probably be solved by the gm acting on and expecting the actions they want. I suspect often times when the minis come out the GM stops role playing first.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Feb 6, 2012 22:15:53 GMT -8
What we have done in our games is removed the grid entirely. It is not needed. tape measure is all you really need. To address the measuring tactics think. No measuring before you declare and commit to doing your action. Everyone enjoys doing different things. As the hosts of the show often say "There's no wrong way to have fun." But what you just described above doesn't sound like a roleplaying game to me daeglan; it sounds like a tactical miniatures wargame. Which I enjoy, don't get me wrong. I play both Warmachine and Hordes and the rules in those games are exactly the same; you use a tape measure to move your models, no pre-measuring distances before you declare an action, etc. But personally I like to keep my tactical games and story-driven games separate. I actually don't like the fact that there are named characters and an overarching metaplot in the Iron Kingdoms universe that get used in the miniatures game. I choose to ignore the story aspect when I'm playing. The opposite is true when I'm playing a roleplaying game. I don't really want tactics to get in the way of telling a good story. Busting out a tape measure and having me measure out how far my character is able to move would really take me out of the story.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 7, 2012 7:13:50 GMT -8
This is very much a to each their own sort of thing. If what you're doing works for you that's awesome please carry on. I can only report on what I have observed in the games that I play. I like miniatures. I dig them for their own sake, for the artistry and the fun of moving them around and running combats with them.
That said, I have observed players who were in one minute very invested in the role play of a game change completely into tactical mode the second we went to the battle mat and the mini's. I'm also not saying that is either a good or a bad thing, just something I have observed.
Cheers,
JiB
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jimto
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Post by jimto on Feb 8, 2012 7:29:44 GMT -8
My group tends to avoid minis. Only used them once and as others have stated, role play stopped while everyone stared at the mat.
We prefer to either use pen/paper or a mat with an erasable marker. It gives a nice reference for everyone, but no one stares at it.
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Post by daeglan on Feb 8, 2012 21:55:29 GMT -8
I see this as a place where the GM like a good director can pull out the behavior he wants in his players. Blaming the minis for these shortcomings seems silly.
Sure it might be more challenging. But what worth doing is easy?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2012 15:56:04 GMT -8
On the topic of nobody moving once the minis are in attack range, my group must be the exception to the rule. all four players have managed to build characters that spend half their time shifting, sliding, pulling, and otherwise moving themselves and the minis all over the board. My character in particular is a Tempest Fighter and is built completely around movement. I leap all over the board moving on each and every turn.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 14, 2012 18:02:56 GMT -8
There are some systems that punish you for moving once you have engaged in melee combat. DnD 3.5, you can take a five foot step but anything more draws an attack of opportunity. This can be quite significant, especially at low levels.
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Post by ayslyn on Feb 21, 2012 12:35:43 GMT -8
I dont like the way the focus changes from the Role-playing It doesn't have to. In my friend's game, the RP only ramps up once the battlemat comes out.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Feb 21, 2012 16:04:46 GMT -8
In my friend's game, the RP only ramps up once the battlemat comes out. Wow. If RP only ramps up when the battlemat comes out, I'm real curious what happens when the battlemat goes away then.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 22, 2012 7:19:34 GMT -8
In my friend's game, the RP only ramps up once the battlemat comes out. Wow. If RP only ramps up when the battlemat comes out, I'm real curious what happens when the battlemat goes away then. That was sort of my thought as well. JiB
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