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Post by ironnikki on Feb 17, 2012 12:05:03 GMT -8
I was going to post this in the thread concerning JiB's comments on ranged attacks vs. parry, but I didn't want to derail the thread.
I feel like the Innocent Bystander rules are a little too forgiving for my tastes. As a newbie to SW, the only penalty that ranged attackers get as far as firing into melee is that if they roll a 1, they could potentially hit an innocent bystander. JoeGun mentioned in the other thread that he always enacts this rule.
Unless I'm mistaken, this doesn't scale at all with increasing number of allied combatants, i.e: the system treats the situation as though you're just as likely to hit a friend if its 1v1 or 2v1. Are there any house rules out there to change this, or have I missed something in the rules? I was thinking about arguing that your allies provide some cover for the defending enemy, or increasing the roll for innocent bystanders depending on how many people you're trying to avoid hitting (if two allies are in melee with a single enemy, a roll of 1 or 2 hits an innocent bystander,) but I think that that could spiral out of control very easily.
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Post by clockworkmonk on Feb 17, 2012 12:14:46 GMT -8
Haha. I was about to suggest that if you've got 1 bystander, rolling a 1 hits them instead. With 2, then rolling 1 or 2, etc. etc. direct correlation. I'm sort of imagining haviing 4 of your allies ganging up on an enemy and then rolling a 2. You may just make someone quite furious, and that in and of itself could be very fun. If your group consents to it, of course. (Two of my players recently complained when I tried the setting rule from Beasts & Barbarians that armor bonuses to toughness act as armor penalties to parry. I let it go, and we all feel much better for it).
I suppose you could try imposing some penalties a la D&D to it--having penalties to firing into melee, and if the result is 1 or lower you hit a bystander instead. But I don't think D&D even does that--you just miss the targets entirely. Personally, it hasn't really come up as a problem in my game as of yet, and none of my players have really complained about it. The rule as it stands in the books really benefits the players anyway, so I don't see them saying anything about it to me anytime soon. And even if they do roll that 1, I allow them to benny it. The only situation I don't allow bennies for is the critical failure snake eyes roll.
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joegun
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 249
Preferred Game Systems: Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: Just GM'ing right now.
Currently Running: Rippers Resurrected, and Savage RIFTS!
Favorite Species of Monkey: Baboon
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Post by joegun on Feb 17, 2012 15:10:05 GMT -8
Hey Nikki,
I wouldn't modify the number to roll myself. However I apply cover if someone was standing in your line of fire. Example: If 4 people are surrounding a guy and you try and shoot said surrounded guy, I would say he has heavy cover. Medium if only 2 guys on him and 1 is blocking, ect. The idea here is the people around him act like shields. And if you roll above a 4, but not above the cover bonus, well you just shot the wrong guy in the arm!
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Post by gandalftheplaid on Feb 17, 2012 19:39:54 GMT -8
I'm with Joegun. The stock rules talk about cover still allowing you to hit your target as long as the damage of your attack is able to penetrate the thing that gave them just enough bonus to their target number. So hitting your target after a quick visit in your friend's arm or kidney is totally legit.
I think the bystander rules are really there for when they're close, but not in the way. So it comes into play when you Stork it, which should be less often as you get better in the skill.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 19, 2012 20:57:24 GMT -8
Variant thought on this topic that I have yet to try but might if the situation arises.
If someone shooting into combat gets a mischance one could use the splash mechanic to see what happened. What is the splash mechanic you ask? Oh yes you did, you know you did.
P. 70 of the Deluxe rule book discusses failure on Area Effect Attacks. If we take that rule and apply it to the problem at hand and simply say that the shooter hit someone 1 square away from the target person and then use the d12 (as a clock) rule to decide who got hit we now have a random distribution that it's hard to argue with.
Just my 2 krupplenicks worth, your mileage may of course vary.
JiB
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joegun
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 249
Preferred Game Systems: Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: Just GM'ing right now.
Currently Running: Rippers Resurrected, and Savage RIFTS!
Favorite Species of Monkey: Baboon
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Post by joegun on Feb 21, 2012 13:16:58 GMT -8
Now that sir is an interesting idea!
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 21, 2012 13:24:44 GMT -8
Now that sir is an interesting idea! One could, if they wanted, make it more representational by saying for example the square directly past the target from the shooter could not be hit, but I don't think I would bother with that. JiB
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joegun
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 249
Preferred Game Systems: Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: Just GM'ing right now.
Currently Running: Rippers Resurrected, and Savage RIFTS!
Favorite Species of Monkey: Baboon
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Post by joegun on Feb 21, 2012 13:28:45 GMT -8
I think it make more sense to leave it in. We all know that in theory, the minis are just abstracting the combat a bit, and they even state in the book that the Characters and moving around, circling, etc. Therefore it could be derived that the person directly behind the target could be hit. Not to mention if we exclude the movement, it is a 2m area, so unless your target is a giant bodybuilder, the odds of him taking up the entire 2m is very unlikely.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 22, 2012 7:30:42 GMT -8
I think it make more sense to leave it in. We all know that in theory, the minis are just abstracting the combat a bit, and they even state in the book that the Characters and moving around, circling, etc. Therefore it could be derived that the person directly behind the target could be hit. Not to mention if we exclude the movement, it is a 2m area, so unless your target is a giant bodybuilder, the odds of him taking up the entire 2m is very unlikely. I agree but one could if one wanted to say that square was a "shadow zone," but that seems to be an unnecessary complication to me. JiB
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Post by ironnikki on Feb 22, 2012 14:06:48 GMT -8
I had intended on using Joegun's rules in the last game that I ran, but my players decided to run in fear instead of fighting (admittedly the best idea, considering one of them spent the last 20 minutes of the game filling out a new character sheet...)
I like your idea too, JiB, but I prefer to assign numbers to potential victims and roll an appropriate die. This is particularly appropriate for my situation, since my PC's are using fully- or semi-automatic weapons, so the hit box could be larger than just one square away. I do have one character that likes to throw knives, though, so I think that the splash rules might be useful for him.
Thanks to everyone who replied!
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Post by gandalftheplaid on Feb 22, 2012 15:22:36 GMT -8
I do have one character that likes to throw knives, though, so I think that the splash rules might be useful for him. Knife throwing could leave anyone a target. As long as your game isn't too serious, some Kung Fu Hustle style problems could be fun. www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nb12zFUIWM
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 22, 2012 15:38:57 GMT -8
I had intended on using Joegun's rules in the last game that I ran, but my players decided to run in fear instead of fighting (admittedly the best idea, considering one of them spent the last 20 minutes of the game filling out a new character sheet...) I like your idea too, JiB, but I prefer to assign numbers to potential victims and roll an appropriate die. This is particularly appropriate for my situation, since my PC's are using fully- or semi-automatic weapons, so the hit box could be larger than just one square away. I do have one character that likes to throw knives, though, so I think that the splash rules might be useful for him. Thanks to everyone who replied! Either way would work basically the same. It's really a question of simple vs complex. I mean if you wanted to you could assign percentile probabilities that were more probable the closer they were to the line of aim and such but that's moving away from the idea of a game and towards the idea of a simulation and if one really wants that I would suggest Hero or GURPS. Assigning each person in the vicinity a number and rolling at random is every bit as viable as the splash mechanic. The only advantage to the splash mechanic is that it's in the book. Cheers, JiB
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jpk
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 58
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Post by jpk on Feb 24, 2012 12:00:32 GMT -8
Knife throwing could leave anyone a target. Absolutely true. As a kid, my sisters were playing chicken, throwing a knife at each other's feet to see who flinched. The innocent rock in the yard didn't flinch at all. The knife bounced off the rock, flew through the air about twenty feet, swirling end over end in fully cinematic slow motion, then "nestled" snugly in my thigh. Getting knifed isn't so bad as long as you don't move. Once you move any at all, it's much, much less pleasant. Much.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 24, 2012 13:41:58 GMT -8
Knife throwing could leave anyone a target. Absolutely true. As a kid, my sisters were playing chicken, throwing a knife at each other's feet to see who flinched. The innocent rock in the yard didn't flinch at all. The knife bounced off the rock, flew through the air about twenty feet, swirling end over end in fully cinematic slow motion, then "nestled" snugly in my thigh. Getting knifed isn't so bad as long as you don't move. Once you move any at all, it's much, much less pleasant. Much. Interesting family you have there jpk ... JiB
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jpk
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 58
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Post by jpk on Feb 26, 2012 0:05:22 GMT -8
Interesting family you have there jpk ... I've found them to be a mixed bag. They were nice enough to alert my mother when I fell out of the car and she was about to run over my head when I was a little kid. Then again, my sister once held my popcorn ransom at a dusk-to-dawn drive-in marathon until I took enough speed to "stay awake enough to be worth the ticket," my great uncle staple-gunned me in the chest, and my aunt intentionally gave me scabies so she wouldn't have to suffer alone. Definitely a mixed bag.
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