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Post by Kainguru on Jul 12, 2015 9:37:02 GMT -8
Hold on, hold on, let me get this right . . . we're complaining because GW has introduced some strange rules in a miniatures game? I'm sort of more referencing how these hobbyists are usually described by all and sundry around here . . . I'm not really disturbed by the encouraging of Dwarf Unit Players to get into character a little bit. The question is is it only silly because of the context of it being 'WarHammer'? if it was just a set of rules, without the WH label, would they work?. Maybe it's less the rules that are wrong but rather that they are wrong for the given IP?. Maybe GW is deliberately targeting the younger audience? trying to get the next generation hooked before they grow up and have no money spare to spend on miniatures? Aaron
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Post by rickno7 on Jul 12, 2015 10:23:23 GMT -8
I'm laughing more at the absurdity of it. The view among many in our particular niche of the hobby is that War-gamers are angry old mathematicians that never let story get in the way of a good flanking maneuver. The primary joke about them on this podcast is the argument phase after each movement of the troops. The iconic adherance to the rules and the fact that the real hardcore buy very precise tape measures.
Then the company in control of their hobby makes this hilarity a part of the game.
While D&D 4th targeted a new audience and changed the game greatly, they weren't exactly "trolling" their hardcore fans with 4th. You couldn't look at 4th from a pre-release stand point and say "this... this is WRONG". The release of 4th is seen by many in our hobby to be a blunder, it lead to the first time in the hobby that there was hard evidence that the flagship of the hobby was not the number 1 seller.
This, however, given our admittedly short sighted(and exaggerated for our own amusement) stereotypical view on war-gamers seems like they are literally trying to kill their game for the fans that have supported their hobby for the past 20+ years.
I'm laughing at what seems to me to be the most "WTF" decision by a game company that I can remember, and also because it is so unbelievable, many of the first comments on the sites I go to are "this is a joke" "this can't be a real article" "April Fools right?"
I make no judgement on the game itself or its rules(though it sounds more like Munchkin: Warhammer, maybe a little judgement). I have no dog in this fight as I have only ever purchased their miniatures for table top RPG use.
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 12, 2015 11:00:41 GMT -8
I'm laughing more at the absurdity of it. The view among many in our particular niche of the hobby is that War-gamers are angry old mathematicians that never let story get in the way of a good flanking maneuver. The primary joke about them on this podcast is the argument phase after each movement of the troops. The iconic adherance to the rules and the fact that the real hardcore buy very precise tape measures. Then the company in control of their hobby makes this hilarity a part of the game. While D&D 4th targeted a new audience and changed the game greatly, they weren't exactly "trolling" their hardcore fans with 4th. You couldn't look at 4th from a pre-release stand point and say "this... this is WRONG". The release of 4th is seen by many in our hobby to be a blunder, it lead to the first time in the hobby that there was hard evidence that the flagship of the hobby was not the number 1 seller. This, however, given our admittedly short sighted(and exaggerated for our own amusement) stereotypical view on war-gamers seems like they are literally trying to kill their game for the fans that have supported their hobby for the past 20+ years. I'm laughing at what seems to me to be the most "WTF" decision by a game company that I can remember, and also because it is so unbelievable, many of the first comments on the sites I go to are "this is a joke" "this can't be a real article" "April Fools right?" I make no judgement on the game itself or its rules(though it sounds more like Munchkin: Warhammer, maybe a little judgement). I have no dog in this fight as I have only ever purchased their miniatures for table top RPG use. That's exactly what I thought - though I never considered the fact that GW is Trolling it's old fanbase. Which is a pretty accurate description BUT also very British thing to do . . . The Spirit of '77 UK was very different from the US thanks to the 'Punk' explosion. This undercurrent of anti-establishment, anti-hippy's still runs strong (bearing in mind that while Johnny Rotten was bagging Pink Floyd as 'old farts' he still went to their concerts and had all their records). It's really hard to explain but trolling their user base is almost a compliment ie: you worthy of being trolled. 2000AD, my preferred pop culture drug of choice, has always done this sort of thing . . . yet it can be a very serious periodical when it wants to be and use the medium to explore/communicate very serious issues . . . It's like 'the stiff upper lip' actually has a wry smile now and again . . . Aaron
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 12, 2015 11:43:39 GMT -8
Yeah I definitely have this feeling that some sardonically witty limeys looked around and said "Corr! Will you 'ave a look at all these pongy, biffy, barmy, codgers...lets make a real cock-up of the game to cheese off the numpty's"
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jul 12, 2015 11:51:45 GMT -8
It's a LONG time since I played Warhammer. First edition obviously. Back then there was no Warhammer FRP, but role-playing elements were in abundance in the core rules. We had a great laugh playing a great campaign, my half-elf was killed by snotlings at the end of a epic battle. Then it started going the way of army lists and templates and accurate measurements and shit. And frankly, if we wanted that we would have cast our own Napoleonic armies years before.
Also with the tape measures and the army lists came neck-beards, funk, and small back rooms in games shops. And we weren't going there.
But these new rules look like they have some of the fun of first edition.
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Post by HourEleven on Jul 12, 2015 12:00:11 GMT -8
Yeah, the biggest issue is the 180. Wh40k has always been pretty absurd (put more skulls on it and the shoulder pads aren't big enough!) but fantasy was the painfully slow, trays and trays of units, giant rule book, appearing as the tactician wonderland - the fantasy version of those history channel diagrams of blocks and arrows moving across the battle field. That's the game GW chose to replace with its silly, ultra rules light (every unit has the same chance of hitting, from the tiny goblin to the giant ogre) game with minimal balance and no point costs (only total wounds).
It's like they made a list of everything that made fantasy battle what it was, and did the exact opposite.
I loved first edition for what it was, but it was a totally different game than what every edition for the past 20 years has been. No more character creation in 2nd edition, no more dungeon crawl-esque battles, etc.
This should have been the relaunch of "Specialist Games" because that's what it is. It's in the same family as Gorka Morka, Mordheim, and Necromunda. People would have gone nuts for a silly specialist game that allowed them the use of all their fantasy models (which was how the hype started before they said it was replacing fantasy battle).
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Post by ayslyn on Jul 12, 2015 12:02:16 GMT -8
I know what you mean, Kain. My family is the same way... We're a sorta "Tough Love" family, in that we tend to show our affection through good natured harassment. If we aren't ribbing and mocking you a little, that's usually a sign that we don't like you.
^.^ Yah Jurks!
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Post by archmagezemoc on Jul 14, 2015 11:27:25 GMT -8
(*valley voice*) I simply can't uh, I can't. I just can't even guys.
I just took a brief look when they announced it, because I don't play Warhammer fantasy, at all. I have some Dwarf minis but that's for my Squats that no one want's to play against. My first reaction was, "sweet Sigmars back with spehss mahreens to piss of Bretonians" or something. My second was "Oh shit, GW just started releasing awesome alternate Marine models! I can't wait to kit bash these!", Then I remembered I still haven't played 40k in like 2 years anyway so it didn't matter to me and I ignored it.
But if they did turn the whole game super rules light and stuff, that won't fly with 40k. If someones Grots can shoot their basically black-powder pistols at the same accuracy as my 10,000 year old Iron Warriors? No, simply no.
But then again I don't play tourneys anyway. So none of this matters to me at all. If me and my friends are gunna play we just use whatever rules are most fun at the time, and just declare if your proxying stuff. Shit, I used my Loyalist Marines as zombies for my Typhus army and Orks as Imperial Guard Stormtroopers before lol. A few games ago I played my 3rd edition Chaos Marine codex vs the 5th edition Nids (btw, I lost horribly).
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Post by HourEleven on Jul 14, 2015 12:02:04 GMT -8
With 40k, these days, we mostly play 1st Ed RT, because it lets you field any model (even new ones) and any number with reasonable balance - based on the scenario. Hell, we ran a scenario of a group of space marines versus a giant plastic T-Rex (because the rules let you stat out literally anything).
Best minis game ever. Required a GM, though, so a lot of people don't like it because it means someone doesn't get to play each game and just has to facilitate it.
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Post by archmagezemoc on Jul 14, 2015 12:13:37 GMT -8
I didn't know the old edition required a GM thats both hilarious and awesome. I bet those old grumpy train conductors would have less grouching and suspender pulling if they reinstated a mini-judge into each game lol! They may even *GASP* have fun or something! Although I'm sure just putting another person at the table to argue with may be the fun they'd get and not the game itself.
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
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Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 14, 2015 17:31:48 GMT -8
There were amazing scenarios like the Lichemaster. That were mass battle RPGs it was a great concept when Games Workshop was run by punks like Kainguru. Lots of antiestablishment stuff going on...John Blanche art capturing it all... Attachments:
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Post by HourEleven on Jul 14, 2015 20:44:52 GMT -8
It plays out great with little auguring, theoretically, because you defer to the GM. The scenarios were all based on partial information. Each side got a sheet detailing what they could bring and what recon they had of the area. Each side had different objectives, and there was planned events that were based on when a figure entered an area or a certain turn number that only the GM knew. Example: www.dropbox.com/s/w2wfwl3i535shnl/battleatthefarm.pdf?dl=0
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Post by HourEleven on Jul 14, 2015 20:46:03 GMT -8
Oh, I forgot, the reason the lore was so extensive (soooo much more than any other game at the time) was so GMs had fluff to create scenarios with.
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Post by archmagezemoc on Jul 14, 2015 21:20:05 GMT -8
I'm just happy the Horus Heresy series exists. I'm slowly rereading it for the 3rd time, and it's so good.
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Hangman
Initiate Douchebag
Flying saucers over Van Nuys
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Post by Hangman on Jul 31, 2015 5:45:54 GMT -8
Uhm, excuse me, this is incredible and I love it?
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