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Post by archmagezemoc on Jul 18, 2015 7:58:52 GMT -8
Well, in my unstoppable Hubris I've taken it upon myself to really push the 5E rules. I'm pushing the limits of the system as far as they go to see where they break. How much damage is too much damage? Does flat DR work as an addon rule better for low-level games or High-level games? WHO THE HELL STOPS THEIR STATS AT 20??? These are the things I will be exploring in the next few weeks. Examples of my current house rules.
1) The 20 stat cap exists for character creation only, stat caps are holding you back.
2) 1 Concentration spell at a time? Nah. Multiple concentration spells can be managed at once with the addition of concentration-checks to maintain said spells, dependent on spell level and number of spells maintained.
3) There's a magic item cap? Good one.
4) One Bonus Action per round? If you come up with an epic enough manuever that requires more than one, then go for it. But be prepared to make payment with either Inspiration, Luck (an extra Stat we use), or Saves VS Exhaustion.
5) Wild Magic = Way more than just that single Wild-Magic effect table, Hope you didn't plan on a certain wild magic. Because now you have to be smoking something anytime you wish to cast a spell. (this happened 2 campaigns ago).
. . . .My savagery doesn't end here. Nay, the forthcoming rules additions will be added.
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Post by Probie Tim on Jul 18, 2015 8:41:54 GMT -8
Just as a point of discussion... Isn't that a flawed premise if you're house ruling a bunch of stuff? You're not really pushing the limits of the system if you're allowing your players to pass the limits of the system as a matter of policy. Just a thought.
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 18, 2015 9:49:13 GMT -8
What fudging rolls <ducks and runs away very very quickly> Aaron
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Post by archmagezemoc on Jul 18, 2015 10:35:28 GMT -8
Lol, touche, I guess I'm stress testing the concept of 5E then?
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Post by archmagezemoc on Jul 19, 2015 5:35:36 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2015 16:25:05 GMT -8
The major side-effect of removing the stat cap is that it will lead to incredibly lopsided characters, in the long run, while reducing the viability of less-than-ideal race/class combinations.
I mean, part of the balance of Wizards (for example) is that they get to INT 20 and then have to diversify into DEX and CON and whatnot. And while those are still both important (and make for an interesting decision, about which one to improve more/first), neither of them are anywhere near as important as INT.
I'm just saying, be prepared for half-orc Fighters with STR 30, and gnome Wizards with a spell save DC of 23.
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Post by archmagezemoc on Jul 19, 2015 17:04:10 GMT -8
My groups been playing together for the past like 6 to 7 years, I'm not too worried about stuff like that lol. And besides, if the wizard doesn't put any more points in DEX then it's not my fault when he fails his DC20 DEX save ^.^
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2015 18:51:02 GMT -8
My groups been playing together for the past like 6 to 7 years, I'm not too worried about stuff like that lol. And besides, if the wizard doesn't put any more points in DEX then it's not my fault when he fails his DC20 DEX save ^.^ It's probably not his fault either, though. The difference between DEX 14 and DEX 16 will only matter one time in twenty. The difference between DEX 14 and DEX 20 will only ever matter 15% of the time, and the rest of the time it comes down to luck. Simply put, DEX saves are too rare, and INT is too useful for wizards. A difference of two points of DEX might matter a grand total of four times in the character's entire career, where the wizard will be calling for spell saves on average more than once per round in every combat. This also makes dwarven wizards much more powerful, since they can retain their high AC without requiring any further stat investment. Throwing everything into INT will prevent more damage, by incapacitating the enemy faster and more reliably, than you'll ever prevent by pumping your own DEX. Mathematically speaking, there's no choice here - there's a correct way, and a suicidally incompetent way. And with an INT score of at least 20, there simply is zero in-character justification for making the wrong choice. Even if you don't see the math, the wizard does.
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Post by archmagezemoc on Jul 20, 2015 6:51:57 GMT -8
Well, INT boost only really gives a bonus to spell DC, it doesn't grant more spells or more damage (in most cases) and the bonus increase to save DCs as you pointed out is only 1 point per increase, not that big of a deal. I don't really see the difference, he's getting a small boost to SOMETHING. Wether it's his INT or his DEX, it's not much difference except DEX is applicable to far more rolls.
Also, how is the wizard calling for more than 1 save per round? Unless your also using my multiple-concentrations (which would be more dependant on concentration, a CON skill) the Wizard is almost always restricted to 1 spell per turn due to being unable to quicken so unless he's casting a bonus-action spell he ain't doin no such thing. Secondly most higher challenge rating monsters have Advantage on all saves VS magic, and real monsters have "Legendary Saves" with which to auto-pass up to ( X times ) per day. Meaning even if his Finger of Death spell has a DC-30, as a GM it's really not a problem, because if he doesn't burn through the monsters Legendary Saves before he unleashes that, well, no dmg. And alot of spells are entirely independent on saves or rolls, like illusion spells and so forth, which aren't effected at all by INT until someone tries to disbelieve the illusion, or someone breaks it.
Whereas if you blast DEX above 20 you still add your bonus to hit/damage, AC, it's applicable to most save and more skills, and is rolled more often than INT. How many spells and traps call for INT saves? It's not like just dumping everything into INT is godmode for anyclass. If anything a CHA dump sorcerer/warlock would be far more dangerous, but I digress.
Also my players roll DEX saves a fucking shitload. traps, slippery terrain, and spells OH MY! I've been running 5E since the playtest, there's nothing super dangerous about the Wizard jamming his INT through the roof. ESPECIALLY IF HE'S EXTRA EFFECTIVE, ENEMIES PLAN AROUND THAT
EDIT:: I suppose if you include AOE spells as your multiple saves per round then I concede that. But I personally wouldn't count that.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2015 13:03:03 GMT -8
Also, how is the wizard calling for more than 1 save per round? [...] Secondly most higher challenge rating monsters have Advantage on all saves VS magic, and real monsters have "Legendary Saves" with which to auto-pass up to ( X times ) per day. [...] Whereas if you blast DEX above 20 you still add your bonus to hit/damage, AC, it's applicable to most save and more skills, and is rolled more often than INT. How many spells and traps call for INT saves? Three points: 1) The wizard is casting a spell every round, and every spell calls for one or more attack rolls or saves. If you Fireball a group of seven orcs, then that's seven times in that round where your INT bonus factors into the outcome. 2) Magic Resistance means you have two chances per round to get that lucky 20, and you need that 20 because nothing in the game has save bonuses high enough to reliably stop a DC 25 spell. Some monsters will have a higher bonus to one or two saves, but there's always a weak save that you can target. 3) The wizard's DEX score matters when you roll initiative, and when the wizard is attacked. The total number of these checks is less than the number of times when the wizard's INT score matter, by a significant amount. And if you want your higher DEX to reliably matter, then you're going to need to sink a lot into it. Point for point, there is never a case where a wizard would be better off putting two points into DEX than putting those two points into INT. Really, though, the most meaningful change will be toward characters who otherwise favored DEX anyway. The swashbuckler Fighter with DEX 30 has +10 to Initiative and hit and damage, with AC 25 (or higher)! The stat cap is EXTREMELY important toward maintaining balance in 5E, and you should definitely hesitate before altering such a fundamental premise of the game. And it's also important to maintaining FUN in the game, since it allows you to (eventually) put points into something other than your prime stat without horrifically under-powering your character in the process. Choices are FUN, and there is no choice when one stat is obviously better than the others.
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Post by archmagezemoc on Jul 20, 2015 13:43:29 GMT -8
Im sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree I suppose. My players have efficient, but not min-maxed characters and so theres been no problems with anyone only maxing 1 stat, they are level 14 now and its been fine.
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