maxinstuff
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Masks
Oct 8, 2015 15:46:00 GMT -8
Post by maxinstuff on Oct 8, 2015 15:46:00 GMT -8
Maxinstuff, you act like people are forced to participate in kickstarters, or that folks are required to kick in egregious amounts. Of course they aren't forced. People can indeed simply choose not to back a given kickstarter. But people are encouraged and enticed (as you said, with rewards typically worth far less than the contributed amount) to pay as much as they can afford (a $250 level for an RPG book - WTF?). And just because it's consensual doesn't mean people aren't getting fucked.
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sbloyd
Supporter
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Post by sbloyd on Oct 8, 2015 15:48:43 GMT -8
...or maybe they contribute $250 because they want to support the project and that is the kind of extra cash they have. I give money to Stu every month on Patreon, and that doesn't even have any backer rewards.
It sounds like you're painting Kickstarter as evil just because some people are irresponsible with their money.
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maxinstuff
Supporter
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Masks
Oct 8, 2015 16:05:42 GMT -8
Post by maxinstuff on Oct 8, 2015 16:05:42 GMT -8
...or maybe they contribute $250 because they want to support the project and that is the kind of extra cash they have. What does that even mean? Are Kickstarter projects charities now? It sounds like you're painting Kickstarter as evil just because some people are irresponsible with their money. Yes, let's blame the hapless gamers who fall for exploitative practices.
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
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Masks
Oct 8, 2015 17:22:49 GMT -8
Post by sbloyd on Oct 8, 2015 17:22:49 GMT -8
What does that even mean? Are Kickstarter projects charities now? Kind of, yeah. You're pledging money to help someone get their project off the ground - that's the purpose of Kickstarter. Backer rewards are just thank-yous to backers. I think that since we're in the middle of a section of the RPG hobby using Kickstarter to fund publishing we're being a little myopic. There's a lot more to Kickstarter than getting gaming books. Yes, let's blame the hapless gamers who fall for exploitative practices. Exploitive practices? You're reaching, dude.
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HyveMynd
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Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
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Masks
Oct 8, 2015 17:29:17 GMT -8
Post by HyveMynd on Oct 8, 2015 17:29:17 GMT -8
Yeah, this has turned into a Kickstarter thread, hasn't it? Oh well. We were mentioning how much money we'd thrown at Masks though.
My feelings about Kickstarters are as follows:
I'm more inclined to back something produced by an individual or a small company. For me, Kickstarters are a way to help individuals or small companies produce something when they wouldn't otherwise be able to do so. I feel that large, well established companies should be able to do business in the normal way; by using the money they've earned from previous products to produce new ones. I see Kickstarter, like Patreon, as a way for me to say "I like what you're doing, want to see it succeed, and so here is some money."
I'm more inclined to back something that is finished or nearly finished. I don't give money to ideas. The book has to be written, the prototypes have to be made, or your product has to be as finished as you can get it before I'll pledge. That shows me the creators are serious about what they're doing. I backed Revelations of Mars because I like Ubiquity and trusted Exile Game Studio to deliver the promised book. That was the first, and only, Kickstarter I've backed that wasn't written. They're three years late, but the books are finally being shipped out.
I'm not mad they're late. Exile Game Studio is a small operation run by people who have day jobs, and stuff happens. They kept up decent contact the whole time. Of course I would have loved to get the book two years ago when they were promised, though. I've learned my lesson about backing stuff that isn't as finished as possible. Magpie Games had Masks written and playtest documents ready to go from day one. Heck, they had free playtest documents out before the Kickstarter went live.
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
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Masks
Oct 8, 2015 18:20:41 GMT -8
Post by sbloyd on Oct 8, 2015 18:20:41 GMT -8
And that's why I backed. It's also why I sing the praises of Onyx Path: they usually have the text of the offering complete, even to the point of posting that text in the Kickstarter pitch (like they did for Beast). The campaign is to pay for art, layout ( Stu Venable can tell you what a bitch that can be), etc. And, yeah, overfunding can extend the offering by bringing in more content. I'll be honest. Most times I want to check out a game to satisfy my curiosity, I hit up the Bay of Pirates, the Fourth Chan, or the Oid of Demons and download the PDF. In this case, I didn't want to wait. Again, I want to point out that we're echo-chambering ourselves by limiting our view of Kickstarter to the RPG Publishing world. The broader scope of Kickstarters does a better job of illustrating what the program really is; check out the campaign to fund the ballet of the Masque of the Red Death. They've got people pledging $1000, over there, and what are they getting? Tickets to the show.
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Masks
Oct 8, 2015 19:36:04 GMT -8
Post by joecrak on Oct 8, 2015 19:36:04 GMT -8
Yea, this has sort of been said, but Kickstarters are not about pre-ordering something at all. They are about helping something be made/created/distributed.
I'm sure Kickstarters have existed in which the backers received no rewards whatsoever, just a thanks. Most Kickstarters have that level as their lowest level. We are just lucky that others offer rewards.
Edit: and granted, I've personal interest in this, but Magpie has consistently made and delivered in a timely fashion all of their Kickstarters, and the writers at Magpie are all established writers and designers.
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Masks
Oct 8, 2015 21:23:20 GMT -8
Post by ayslyn on Oct 8, 2015 21:23:20 GMT -8
They are selling a product, before it's finished at that. Max, you know I love ya. But that ship has sailed so long ago that Moses is over it. We've been paying for things that weren't finished products since time immemorial, literally. And that's literally in the correct usage of the word, not the modern day one.
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maxinstuff
Supporter
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Favorite Species of Monkey: Proboscis
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Masks
Oct 8, 2015 21:24:47 GMT -8
Post by maxinstuff on Oct 8, 2015 21:24:47 GMT -8
They are selling a product, before it's finished at that. Max, you know I love ya. But that ship has sailed so long ago that Moses is over it. We've been paying for things that weren't finished products since time immemorial, literally. And that's literally in the correct usage of the word, not the modern day one. And enough is enough I say! luv u 2 bro (or whatever - you don't ahve a gender listed )
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Masks
Oct 8, 2015 21:25:59 GMT -8
Post by ayslyn on Oct 8, 2015 21:25:59 GMT -8
Bro.
Like most details, I'm not hiding it, I just don't advertise. ^.^
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bevinflannery
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 109
Currently Playing: Pathfinder, Savage Worlds
Currently Running: Pathfinder/3.5, FATE Core
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Masks
Oct 9, 2015 2:37:58 GMT -8
Post by bevinflannery on Oct 9, 2015 2:37:58 GMT -8
Bro. Like most details, I'm not hiding it, I just don't advertise. ^.^ I just assumed that horn on your avatar was representative of the state of your genitals.
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Masks
Oct 9, 2015 7:16:19 GMT -8
Post by ayslyn on Oct 9, 2015 7:16:19 GMT -8
/eyebrow waggle
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Masks
Oct 9, 2015 12:49:41 GMT -8
Post by Stu Venable on Oct 9, 2015 12:49:41 GMT -8
If you set up a Kickstarter and offer rewards, you are obliged to fulfill that agreement. The organizer side of Kickstarter states this explicitly. It is not a gift, a gesture of good will, or anything like that. It is a pre-order -- if you don't believe me, go and start setting up a Kickstarter and read all the stuff you have to agree to.
In the early days of Kickstarter, it was used by bands who had recorded their CDs but didn't have the cash to have them printed. And in that is the root of what Kickstarter is:
(I'm in peril of repeating myself again...) Kickstarter distributes risk.
If the campaign is designed correctly, the organizer will have enough money to go to press, hire artists, or whatever else they need money to get done and fulfill their preorders.
If not, then the Kickstarter fails and the artists know there's not enough demand for their work to support producing and they've lost nothing but time fucking around in front of a computer.
Before crowd-sourcing we'd just pull out our credit cards and hope there was enough demand to sell enough to pay the credit card off. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't.
Kickstarter has CERTAINLY allowed people who are capable of producing something (but without the credit history to bring it to market) to do so.
It's also allowed people who aren't capable of producing something to collect money. And it's also allowed downright crooks to collect money. On one hand, Kickstarter should have some culpability here. If they can't or won't reverse charges (which they never do AFAIK), they could at least ban people from repeating their scams (which they don't do at least some times).
All-in-all, I think it's a good idea, but it requires consumer vigilance.
I, for one, won't take any more advertisements from Kickstarters. All the ones that ran ads either fulfilled or didn't fund, so it's not that listeners got screwed. But I think that would have been only a matter of time. I now ignore advertiser inquiries if they're for a Kickstarter.
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
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Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Masks
Oct 9, 2015 12:55:13 GMT -8
Post by sbloyd on Oct 9, 2015 12:55:13 GMT -8
Certainly, Stu. I'm just saying they're not obligated to offer rewards in the first place, nor are those rewards necessarily of commensurate value with the backer level (which would be stupid, really - if you pledge $500, and my $500 backer level reward is worth $500, I just netted zero, or even came out behind given shipping costs).
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sbloyd
Supporter
WHAT! A human in a Precursor service vehicle?!
Posts: 2,762
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller; Dresden; Mage
Favorite Species of Monkey: Goddamnit, Curious George is a CHIMP not a monkey! Stop teaching my daughter improper classification!
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Masks
Oct 16, 2015 12:34:33 GMT -8
Post by sbloyd on Oct 16, 2015 12:34:33 GMT -8
Kickstarter has been getting better about killing skeevy projects. This one, for example. Of course, they just shifted to indiegogo, so... I do wish they'd be more diligent about letting folks who have outstanding kickstarted projects not serially stand-up backers. Anyhow. Masks game for Jackercon? Huh? Huh?
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