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Post by Kainguru on May 7, 2016 12:03:41 GMT -8
I kinda gotta agree with this guys critique of one of Wil Wheatons latest offerings . . . Aaron
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Post by mook on May 7, 2016 12:18:00 GMT -8
OY... he may have some good points, I dunno. I literally couldn't get past the first 60 seconds of the video lol.
YouTubers: If you're trying to call someone out because you think they're obnoxious... try not to be so obnoxious doing it.
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Post by SirGuido on May 7, 2016 12:41:10 GMT -8
that guy in the video is a shit stain. He's everything wrong with nerd culture.
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Post by Kainguru on May 7, 2016 13:15:13 GMT -8
Did you listen to his critique of Wheaton though . . . he was on the money - Wheaton was WRONG. I haven't heard ANYONE complain about The Force Awakens is the manner Wheaton claims people have. 1) According to Wheaton the original trilogy didn't have a strong female lead? WTF Princess Leia 2) According to Wheaton people have complained that Rey wears to much clothing? WTF The least popular of the original trilogy (Return of the Jedi) has slave Leia, she's fully clothed in New Hope and Empire which are the most popular of the original trilogy 3) Who has complained about the female lead? where is this backlash given The Force Awakens has been hugely successful Ignore the first 60 secs and ignore how he's what he say - it's what he says that is valid. Wheatons video is the real insult and his faux mocking of the attitudes of nerd culture are the real shit stain. Wheaton has gone down in my estimation because he's jumped on a popularist band wagon to make a video that highlights a non-existent problem. Fuck knows nerd culture has enough to contend with without these sort of baseless accusations. Yes The Force Awakens was derivative of A New Hope - everyone still loved it and that's not a gender issue Yes Rey could be said to be a Mary Sue - that's kinda what Star Wars is, again not a gender issue What COULD be said is that The Force Awakens is still too white, Finn is a fabulous character played by a brilliant actor but his character still suffers from 'Lando Calrissian' syndrome - Lando's character, despite being important, still failed to be as pivotal as the the big 3 (Han/Luke/Leia). A fact that has been commented upon many times over the decades. Finn's last 15mins were a bit disappointing: Poe's the greatest pilot, Rey can kick butt like a Jedi, but Finn needs help to win a fight (Han saving him at Maz's castle) and tries, but fails, to defend Rey (ending up in coma instead). That's not a gender issue is it . . . Wheaton is out of order with his 'clever' video, he's not used irony to defeat a public menace he's tried to create an issue that doesn't exist and ignored the one that does - because I remember the very real, and distasteful, comments that were slung around by the narrow minded racists when Boyega's casting was first announced. Didn't see Mr Wheaton get so hot under the collar then . . . I agree the YouTuber is obnoxious and I'll admit I was watching it to hate it - except what he said actually made sense and I ended up feeling really insulted by what Wil Wheaton was trying to say/do Aaron
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Post by mook on May 7, 2016 14:37:29 GMT -8
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Post by Kainguru on May 7, 2016 15:13:49 GMT -8
I get that this is kind of an odd conversation. I'm basically saying "It's such a small issue, why even care?"... which is exactly your original point about Wheaton's video (I think). Exactly Aaron
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Post by Kainguru on May 7, 2016 15:41:49 GMT -8
By playing up to this minority of a minority view he's enabling them by validating them and actually creating the very problem he's supposedly trying to oppose. Yeah, I heard the criticisms of Fury Road and like every one else ignored it because - MAD MAX!!!!! (being that it's Australian and Miller comes from my Home City it'd be treason not to go); and it was a fucking fantastic movie. An action movie directed by a gay man past retirement age who's last success was 'Babe: Pig in the City' that owned all the action flicks released by his younger and more prolific competition. All the people who went and saw it and gave it thumbs up didn't give a fuck about the stupid opinions of what amounts to a fringe element, that fringe element had a total impact of zero . . . Sometimes fighting something is the problem because it gives it substance and makes it real. The best tactic is to ignore fringe elements like that because, without the validation of cause celebre, it'll then just fade away be forgotten and become no more than a dusty anecdote taking up server space and haunting an unvisited webpage nobody reads anymore . . . It's basic behaviour modification 101 aka BF Skinner Operant Conditioning - to extinguish a negative behaviour you should ignore it, because even negative reinforcement is still reinforcement and any reinforcement will prevent it from being extinguished. Wil Wheaton has clumsily just helped to create the very problem he's supposedly trying to stop. Given his high profile and celebrity status he has acted very irresponsibly. He's been reactive rather than proactive and that's never a good thing . . . Aaron
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Post by mook on May 7, 2016 18:02:36 GMT -8
I think what we're seeing is a larger segment of society basically saying, "Screw you ignorant dipshits. We're not putting up with your bullshit any more." They don't want it to "go away" in the sense that it just retreats to the shadows until the next flare-up of boorishness. They want it dragged into the light, confronted, and told "No. Enough. We do not accept your bigotry."
We may disagree on the efficacy of such a shift, but that is definitely the way the wind is blowing. Ignoring the cro-mags sure hasn't worked, so who knows?
I also think you'd be hard-pressed to cast "sexist bigots" as any kind of fringe element. Frankly, some days they seem the majority.
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on May 7, 2016 21:18:07 GMT -8
Wait, why do we care about someone else's opinion again? Because they were on a TV show and are in popular media?
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Post by fredrix on May 7, 2016 22:32:56 GMT -8
OY... he may have some good points, I dunno. I literally couldn't get past the first 60 seconds of the video lol. YouTubers: If you're trying to call someone out because you think they're obnoxious... try not to be so obnoxious doing it. I lasted 80 seconds
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Post by Kainguru on May 7, 2016 22:54:25 GMT -8
I think what we're seeing is a larger segment of society basically saying, "Screw you ignorant dipshits. We're not putting up with your bullshit any more." They don't want it to "go away" in the sense that it just retreats to the shadows until the next flare-up of boorishness. They want it dragged into the light, confronted, and told "No. Enough. We do not accept your bigotry." We may disagree on the efficacy of such a shift, but that is definitely the way the wind is blowing. Ignoring the cro-mags sure hasn't worked, so who knows? I also think you'd be hard-pressed to cast "sexist bigots" as any kind of fringe element. Frankly, some days they seem the majority. They are a fringe element in nerd culture - especially when you consider the mainstream response of nerd culture to the TFA and/or Mad Max: which has been overwhelmingly positive. Because 'the great the good and the well intentioned' want to drag things into the light doesn't want make them 'right' or 'effective' . . . these opinions are going to exist no matter what and doing what Wil Wheaton has done only emboldens them. FFS they've gone and got the attention of a celebrity, suddenly 'they' matter - their opinion is validated precisely because someone suddenly gives a damn It's also hypocritical, massively . . . because I didn't see anyone high profile and white standing up to the racists when they were slagging off Jon Boyega. That was very noticeable, but do you see how Disney and Jon Boyega dealt with it? They simply ignored it, dismissed it as the irrelevant and insane ranting it was . . . because to acknowledge these toxic views only gives those views power. There is no dodging the fact that confronting toxic ideologies empowers those ideologies - unless, in the confronting, you have the tools to eliminate the expression of that ideology. But then, just because you stop people expressing it, that doesn't mean the ideology dies - look at persistence of Nazi thought and the rise of the Neo-Nazi movement across parts of Europe, where it is rising faster in those countries that have historically being the most reactive to it's existence . Confronting and dragging into the light of day this toxic ideology has only served to recruit and empower a new generation of fascists. Wil Wheatons message? he pretends to understand feminist theory but doesn't because feminism is also the fight against racism/class/social inequality. Germaine Greer would have a coronary, as that kind of confrontational bullshit is NOT part of proper feminist doctrine . . . "the opposite of patriarchy isn't matriarchy it's fraternity" (Germaine Greer). Ironically Wil Wheaton has been disingenuous to the very people he hopes to defend by assuming they need him, a white male, to champion their cause because in so doing he has sent a very negative message that, again, reinforces the beliefs he claims to oppose. Besides that very visceral desire of wanting to 'drag the cro-mag's kicking and screaming into the light of day' to confront them and expose them is, I hate to say it, a very typically patriarchal response. This is the very opposite of classical feminist doctrine - because it's using aggression, privilege and power to impose an ideology on another rather than persuasion and education. The road to hell is paved with good intentions . . . Aaron PS: I have a confession to make too, I grew up with a single parent who was the 'Women's Rights Officer' (later changed to 'Equal Opportunities Officer') in the Local University Students Union. I know my Germaine Greer inside and out
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Post by mook on May 8, 2016 1:26:49 GMT -8
I think you're mistaking your specific flavor of feminism with the broad spectrum of viewpoints held by others, all as equally committed. There is no such thing as "proper feminist doctrine," and not all of feminists would agree with Greer that if you find the thought of tasting your own menstrual blood distasteful (ba-dum-bump!), you're not fully a free woman. There is a whole swath of issues that the feminist movement itself cannot agree on, one of which is the most effective path to building a more egalitarian society. Certainly one of those factions is the "We don't give a fuck what you keep thinking, but keep your idiocy to yourself" branch. I also strongly disagree that "sexist bigots" are "a fringe element in nerd culture." We are clearly exposed to very different groups of nerds. I would agree that on the whole, nerd culture is probably a skootch more liberal and accepting than most... but I've been in/near far too many gamer groups with clearly stunted "men" with no concept of their own boorishness to consider it fringe. Holding up a lack of Wheaton outrage over the casting of Boyega as being hypocritical I think says more about your dislike of the guy than any lack of offense on his part. I mean, he hasn't said anything about the clubbing of baby Harp seals either, but I'm pretty sure I know where he stands on it. Not taking up one issue because you can't take up every issue leads to not taking up any issues. ("Do you want societal apathy? 'Cause that's how you get societal apathy!" /Archer) I'm just agreeing to disagree, though. My original post was just to mock the irony of the YouTuber being unpleasantly obnoxious to curry clicks by disparaging a more well-known figure for... being obnoxious. I'm hardly white-knighting to the feminists' rescue. They're doing just fine without me.
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Post by Kainguru on May 8, 2016 4:30:41 GMT -8
That's just it I do like Wil Wheaton . . . but I just feel really uncomfortable with what he's doing here. TBH I can't shake the feeling that he's doing what he's doing because it's a popular thing to do at the moment - maybe I'm too cynical but I feel like he's jumped on a band wagon. It's the same feeling I got back in my Student Activist Days when I realised that many of those the so-called SNAGs and Left Wing Pro-Feminist Liberal Guys were actually middle class sexist jerks reacting to the fact that their parents had the audacity to give them a decent start in life. Worse was, when in solely male company, they'd drop the facade to reveal that their political activism was motivated less by a concern for social equality and more by belief that 'liberal left wing girls are easy' - basically they were playing a role, often very successfully, simply to get laid. It was this insincerity that made me a total cynic, and really made me angry because they would assume that because I was male I was motivated by the same thing - which is why they would suddenly drop the facade. But then again I was the guy that was permanently barred from the International Socialists because I was 'too left wing' - I still consider that an honourable achievement. Yes feminism has many flavours, but like classical (eg: Roman) fascism there are set of core beliefs. Nazi's called themselves fascists but they weren't fascists in the same manner as the Romans. It would be more accurate to say that many new and derivative ideologies have appropriated the term feminism - when something evolves to a point that it seems to be something else then it's time to call it something else. IMHO Germaine Greer is Alive and Well and still a very active commentator, at least on this side of the Atlantic (she is regular contributor on the only radio station I listen to anymore BBC Radio 4) - she hasn't stood still and continues to add to her understanding of the movement she helped to define, being old shouldn't marginalize her opinion, in fact to marginalize her opinion because she is older is exactly the problem that her understanding of feminism set out to abolish. TL:DR/ Basically I think Wil Wheaton is 'white-knighting' and I feel let down by someone whose opinion I usually respect (even if I don't always agree) Aaron
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Post by Kainguru on May 8, 2016 6:03:21 GMT -8
I also strongly disagree that "sexist bigots" are "a fringe element in nerd culture." We are clearly exposed to very different groups of nerds. I would agree that on the whole, nerd culture is probably a skootch more liberal and accepting than most... but I've been in/near far too many gamer groups with clearly stunted "men" with no concept of their own boorishness to consider it fringe. I will admit that my exposure to nerd culture has always been thru the prism of my own personal political leanings, ie: not all my associates are nerds but the people I choose to associate with tend to correspond closely with my chosen political outlook. I simply cannot be bothered to entertain people who have political views that are to far removed from mine: that's not say I don't take the time to challenge those views when they intrude. Eg: my house has been permanently removed from BPN (British National Party - which is a thinly veiled rebranding of the former National Front) doorknock canvassing in my area not because I was rude or confrontational, quite the opposite, I was reasonable and willingly entered into a discourse with them - I simply challenged their assertions with demonstrable facts and nothing scares a bigotry based organisation more than having their apostles not only fail to gain converts but to also start to question their own rhetoric. But these people exist, it's foolish to think we can change what people think and to start to go down that road is dangerous. Once we believe we have the right to change peoples thinking we become no better than they, what we have is a responsibility to give people the right and the opportunity to make an informed choice - through education and reasonable dialogue. Social Engineering is theory that over states it's effectiveness, because the most successful examples of social engineering are those that have the capacity to exploit our natural dispositions eg: it's easy to make us mindless morons happy to sit in front of the telly and do nothing, precisely because it's easy to sit in front of the telly and and nothing. when the Social Engineers set about reversing this trend - it's been an uphill challenge and only marginally successful to date (as evidenced by the ever increasing trend towards obesity and sedentary life styles in the developed first world). Thinking that one has the 'right' life philosophy and therefore a 'moral obligation' to impose this thought upon the rest of the world is exactly what led to the likes of Cambodia's Pol Pot and his Year Zero. From my point of view Pol Pot was wrong, from his point of view he was simply trying to make the world a better place - and he felt justified. Suddenly a certain political agenda enters the zietgiest and peoples from the extremes of both sides have started rattling their sabers at each other. The real shame is, from my point of view, they are on both sides ALL bigots. I have my Trotsky stripes and special branch file labeling me a political dissident from my younger days when I was an actively political activist who subscribed to the notion of Positive Action (riot, protest, march, occupy, defy); but I believe I have cahnged more peoples opinions, for the better, over the long span of time by simply entering in constructive dialgues with them than I ever did in all those years of being more publicly active. "You cannot have a revolution to bring about change, you bring about change to have a revolution". As to Jon Boyega: he didn't need defending because they did the right thing - they carried on filming regardless and people went to the cinema regardless. I don't know how it is the USA but the KKK still exist? I only ask that a question because 30 years ago everyone knew who they were outside of the USA and by vilifying them the opposite started to happen they gained recruits - hell they even had an 'offical' chapter in Oz. Now I'm happy to say that a lot of under 25 year olds I meet don't even know who the KKK were, let alone who they are . . . this is a good thing. There is still racism but it's not as openly vitriolic as it was and don't believe the SJW's contributed to that change . . . ordinary people did by ignoring the radicals and forcing them to change their own positions. This is the first step in the right direction: with many more steps to go, lasting change is a generational thing. I don't think I'll ever live long enough to see a world without Neo-Nazi's but, despite their claims, there are less of them now* than when I was younger . . . they'll eventually fade away. *An example of the contradictory news media: they give these political movements more and more air time because they are controversial and controversy sells yet in real terms their numbers are falling as evidenced in documentary's (by the same broadcasters as the news) where these groups either bemoan their recruitment numbers or see this documentary exposure as an opportunity spread their propaganda: eg Reggie Yates Extreme Russia: Far Right and Proud (BBC) Aaron
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Post by uncommonman on May 8, 2016 6:29:36 GMT -8
This discussion reminded me of Morgan Freemans solution to racism:
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