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Post by ilina on Dec 24, 2016 21:49:01 GMT -8
i know that Jack of All Trades requires a d10 smarts and i know it has a discussion on the boards that inspired this question. but with Anecdotal evidence on the Savage Worlds forums, i have found that Jack of All Trades is a bit overpriced compared to simply taking broad focused knowledge Skills like Science Nerd or Movie Buff. i mean, Anime Geek was the original example, but i found out that if you build a character who literally indulges themselves in a form of fictional entertainment that secretly has more practical application than most people realize such as being a 21st century Terran Anime Geek who got stuck inside a fantasy setting where all that anime knowledge pays off. i noticed that it kind of invalidates Jack of All trades.
i mean, the example character i used to get the point across from Anecdotes of actual experience, was an Anime Geek but it could have just as easily been a movie buff or a bookworm. the idea, was that with a knowledge skill based around identifying entertainment tropes of some kind, that you could literally have that one knowledge skill literally simulate a mountain of other knowledge skills and invalidate jack of all trades.
lets just swap the example to something that works in a fantasy setting like a Bookworm. you take Knowledge (Novels) because there is literally a Novel for learning every possible subject. because your character reads a lot of novels in their spare time. funny thing, most of those novels could have a lot of practical application, so effectively, your knowledge: (Novels) skill can effectively simulate the other knowledge skills that might be situationally important to a campaign and thus remove the need for those highly situational knowledge skills most PCs don't bother with. because your character is a Bookworm.
effectively, by connecting every knowledge skill to a potential novel your character read, you get to roll a knowledge: (Novels) check. effectively, this knowledge skill has gained power comparable to merging all the scientific knowledge skills into Knowledge: (Science). effectively, by making your fantasy character a bookworm, you allowed one knowledge skill to rule them all and gain all sorts of information.
because of this, i think the d10 smarts requirement on Jack of All Trades is too high. because for fewer attribute points, a character could take Knowledge: (Novels) or Knowledge: (Bookworm) or a similar setting appropriate knowledge skill like Knowledge (Gamer), Knowledge (Anime Otaku) or Knowledge (Movie Buff) that could perform the same effect.
i would propose nerfing the Jack of All Trades smarts requirement to d6, but i would be willing to consider d8 a fair compromise. because a munchkin can already find a "Clever" (Read, Abusive) Knowledge skill that covers most of the stuff they want their character to know and abuse the Omniknowledge. in fact, most High smarts characters are already decent at streetwise, healing, repair and notice. so really, what they would be gaining is the ability to not have to train a d4 in a bunch of situational knowledge skills that individually won't apply often enough to matter. the relevant portion of the edge is probably already likely trained and the knowledge skills (the real meat) can be simulated by taking a character who obsessively studies whatever the appropriate entertainment form of the setting is and uses it as a sort of broken uber knowledge that rivals bardic knowledge in D&D.
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Post by ilina on Dec 24, 2016 23:00:51 GMT -8
funny things my Saturday GM has done that seem to make me assume this
he usually lets smarts rolls cover most knowledge things and allows some knowledge skills to effectively become universal knowledges if you want to meet edge requirements. this literally frees players up for more combat skills, then he gets upset when players have a focus on combat skills and take combat edges because they already have most of the skills they need for their role for a lot cheaper.
same guy who merged climbing, swimming and throwing into the Vigor Based Athletics if you want to roll against target numbers of 6 instead of 4.
same guy who literally gave his PCs Power Armor, Pip Boys, Bioweave. and Plasma Miniguns in a Fallout campaign and got upset he couldn't challenge his players.
same guy who gave his Players Millions of dollars apiece over the course of the first 2 months of a year long Nemezis campaign and got upset when everybody had all the Cybernetic implants they needed, had recruited the best mercenary Fleet in the Galaxy, had literally purchased several planets and built massive space colonies to store their loot that went to procuring the Asteroid mining corporation they purchased.
yes, he complained he couldn't challenge us there either, because Every PC was a crazy combat cyborg with a mountain of magic items, the PCs hired the services of the most overpowered mercenary fleet in the Galaxy, had mutual leadership of half the planets in the federation, had mutual ownership of the main Asteroid mining company, had ownership of the best intergalactic delivery service and nothing else to spend money on because we all had assault armor, lightsabers and plasma miniguns and all this other stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2016 11:08:52 GMT -8
i mean, the example character i used to get the point across from Anecdotes of actual experience, was an Anime Geek but it could have just as easily been a movie buff or a bookworm. the idea, was that with a knowledge skill based around identifying entertainment tropes of some kind, that you could literally have that one knowledge skill literally simulate a mountain of other knowledge skills and invalidate jack of all trades. lets just swap the example to something that works in a fantasy setting like a Bookworm. you take Knowledge (Novels) because there is literally a Novel for learning every possible subject. because your character reads a lot of novels in their spare time. funny thing, most of those novels could have a lot of practical application, so effectively, your knowledge: (Novels) skill can effectively simulate the other knowledge skills that might be situationally important to a campaign and thus remove the need for those highly situational knowledge skills most PCs don't bother with. because your character is a Bookworm. effectively, by connecting every knowledge skill to a potential novel your character read, you get to roll a knowledge: (Novels) check. effectively, this knowledge skill has gained power comparable to merging all the scientific knowledge skills into Knowledge: (Science). effectively, by making your fantasy character a bookworm, you allowed one knowledge skill to rule them all and gain all sorts of information. No no no fuck no and NO! There is no way to take knowledge novels and use it to connect it to every knowledge roll because it might have been in a novel. That's not how it works or how the real world works and trying to make it work like that is just power gaming and twisting of the rules. Similarly watching loads of anime does not teach you all about a given setting. Just because you've watched an anime set in space would not mean you would know all about spaceflight or zero gravity operations.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Dec 25, 2016 14:00:09 GMT -8
Yup, and applying anything you've learned about space from novels or anime would likely get you killed quicker than someone who knew nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2016 8:49:50 GMT -8
"Oh no that man has been shot! Let me through, I've seen Saving Private Ryan...I know what to do."
That is basically what you are talking about.
That doesn't work. A true Jack of all trades would need that higher than average intelligence to deal with any knowledge based skill. They know a little about everything, they have not just seen some movies or read a novel. It is the kind of edge that would be written into a backstory, like Flynn from the Librarian....he has been in school forever and has multiple degrees/doctorates. His character would have several specialty knowledge skills with jack of all trades to fill in the gaps.
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Post by ilina on Dec 27, 2016 10:02:57 GMT -8
"Oh no that man has been shot! Let me through, I've seen Saving Private Ryan...I know what to do." That is basically what you are talking about. That doesn't work. A true Jack of all trades would need that higher than average intelligence to deal with any knowledge based skill. They know a little about everything, they have not just seen some movies or read a novel. It is the kind of edge that would be written into a backstory, like Flynn from the Librarian....he has been in school forever and has multiple degrees/doctorates. His character would have several specialty knowledge skills with jack of all trades to fill in the gaps. d8 is higher than Average though. i don't get why it blatantly needs a d10. makes it a pain when you want to start play as a Dashing Jack or an Adorable Jill with a diverse set of knowledges, languages and a decent amount of charm.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2016 11:27:04 GMT -8
"Oh no that man has been shot! Let me through, I've seen Saving Private Ryan...I know what to do." That is basically what you are talking about. That doesn't work. A true Jack of all trades would need that higher than average intelligence to deal with any knowledge based skill. They know a little about everything, they have not just seen some movies or read a novel. It is the kind of edge that would be written into a backstory, like Flynn from the Librarian....he has been in school forever and has multiple degrees/doctorates. His character would have several specialty knowledge skills with jack of all trades to fill in the gaps. d8 is higher than Average though. i don't get why it blatantly needs a d10. makes it a pain when you want to start play as a Dashing Jack or an Adorable Jill with a diverse set of knowledges, languages and a decent amount of charm. That is the thing about a balanced system, there is give and take....you won't be good at everything. If you want a diverse set of knowledge, you may have to take a hit on physical stats or other edges. If you want a party full of folk who can do anything and everything then perhaps your GM can house rule something. I wanted a high skilled/powered Sci-Fi game, so I gave everyone a free edge and started the group at 5xp. However, If a GM does adjust skills/edges or Monty Hall a bunch of gear, then they can't be surprised when they have problems challenging players.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2016 11:36:50 GMT -8
It's not hard to build a a character that hits what you want in terms of Knowledge, charm, etc....You may just have to build towards it.
Attractive and Linguist are background edges but Charismatic is a social and Jack-of-all-Trades is a professional; they can be taken after character creation. If they spend their free time in study (maybe make it one of their quirks...always reading/lost in thought) they can buy J-o-a-T within two levels (start at d8 Smarts, one level up for the d10, second for the edge). It all depends on what you value for your character.
...and regarding professional edges; to quote from the book (bolded for emphasis):
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Dec 28, 2016 12:49:48 GMT -8
If you make it too easy to get, what's stopping everyone from getting it and landing you with a hypercompetent, nearly homogenous party?
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Post by jonas on Dec 28, 2016 22:54:19 GMT -8
Yup, and applying anything you've learned about space from novels or anime would likely get you killed quicker than someone who knew nothing. If someone wanted to use their 'Knowledge - Anime' to do something in my game - like piloting a spaceship - I would 'yes, and' them, but add that it would only work if they dyed their hair purple, had an unnecessary flashback to a scene from just a couple of minutes ago and got an explosive nosebleed attack. ;-)
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Post by savagedaddy on Jan 5, 2017 11:13:31 GMT -8
d8 is higher than Average though. i don't get why it blatantly needs a d10. makes it a pain when you want to start play as a Dashing Jack or an Adorable Jill with a diverse set of knowledges, languages and a decent amount of charm. That is the thing about a balanced system, there is give and take....you won't be good at everything. If you want a diverse set of knowledge, you may have to take a hit on physical stats or other edges. If you want a party full of folk who can do anything and everything then perhaps your GM can house rule something. I wanted a high skilled/powered Sci-Fi game, so I gave everyone a free edge and started the group at 5xp. However, If a GM does adjust skills/edges or Monty Hall a bunch of gear, then they can't be surprised when they have problems challenging players. The Edge is not broken, or too restrictive. Consider that all it does is eliminate the -2 penalty to Unskilled Trait Tests for skills with Smarts as their linked attribute. When all you need is a 4 to succeed, eliminating the -2 is a huge deal! Furthermore it falls in line with the scalability of Skills. If d12 is the penultimate, 1% of the population, guru level mastery of a skill, then requiring a d10 is perfectly reasonable. It helps to view die types in Smarts as ranges in IQ points. An 85-115 IQ is Normal, thus a d6. An IQ between 115-130 is Superior Intelligence, thus a d8. And a d10 comes in around 130-145, with anything above 145 IQ (a d12) is Genius level. The opposite is also true; anything between 70-85 is a d4 is a certain level of Dullard. The other flaw that I see in the assertion of a lower requirement for Jack of All Trades is the blurring of lines with Unskilled Knowledge checks. Taking a d10 in Knowledge (Computer) is an investment of time and points from advancement. It is very specific. It doesn't apply to all facets of anything computer. For example, knowing how computers operate or being able to having a decent level of mastery with search engines does not mean you can repair a computer or build one from the ground up. That requires Repair, or perhaps Knowledge (Engineering). This is where the Common Smarts rule comes into play. That's my 2 cents anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2017 12:36:29 GMT -8
That is the thing about a balanced system, there is give and take....you won't be good at everything. If you want a diverse set of knowledge, you may have to take a hit on physical stats or other edges. If you want a party full of folk who can do anything and everything then perhaps your GM can house rule something. I wanted a high skilled/powered Sci-Fi game, so I gave everyone a free edge and started the group at 5xp. However, If a GM does adjust skills/edges or Monty Hall a bunch of gear, then they can't be surprised when they have problems challenging players. The Edge is not broken, or too restrictive. Consider that all it does is eliminate the -2 penalty to Unskilled Trait Tests for skills with Smarts as their linked attribute. When all you need is a 4 to succeed, eliminating the -2 is a huge deal! Furthermore it falls in line with the scalability of Skills. If d12 is the penultimate, 1% of the population, guru level mastery of a skill, then requiring a d10 is perfectly reasonable. It helps to view die types in Smarts as ranges in IQ points. An 85-115 IQ is Normal, thus a d6. An IQ between 115-130 is Superior Intelligence, thus a d8. And a d10 comes in around 130-145, with anything above 145 IQ (a d12) is Genius level. The opposite is also true; anything between 70-85 is a d4 is a certain level of Dullard. The other flaw that I see in the assertion of a lower requirement for Jack of All Trades is the blurring of lines with Unskilled Knowledge checks. Taking a d10 in Knowledge (Computer) is an investment of time and points from advancement. It is very specific. It doesn't apply to all facets of anything computer. For example, knowing how computers operate or being able to having a decent level of mastery with search engines does not mean you can repair a computer or build one from the ground up. That requires Repair, or perhaps Knowledge (Engineering). This is where the Common Smarts rule comes into play. That's my 2 cents anyway. Truth. Common skill checks are for basic things or general knowledge. When faced with a computer you need to access, a common/unskilled knowledge check can get you to the point of turning it on and maybe identifying it as a pc vs a mac but knowledge: computer can potentially get you around the user sign in/mine it for potentially useful information/etc. I don't care how many anime/movies/books you've consumed that contain computers...none of them will actually help you operate it. If one were to argue that you have studied several books that deal with actual computer operation then I would say that your character should actually have taken knowledge: computers specifically.
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jan 5, 2017 13:16:36 GMT -8
What? You didn't take d6 in Tying Your Shoes? You trip and fall.
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