G.I. Joe
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 147
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, FATE, GURPS
Currently Playing: Isawa Miriko: Split soul made whole again... with memory issues. Homura (Formerly Isawa Kiyoi) - wandering fire Priestess; Girart - a GURPS low-tech combat monkey w/19ST
Currently Running: Fushigina Ronin (L5R 4th ed)
Favorite Species of Monkey: Winston
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Post by G.I. Joe on Jan 11, 2017 11:33:24 GMT -8
So, just for kicks, I took a look at creating a character for a topaz championship campaign (not that there is going to be one). Now, looking at the rules for a rank 0 campaign, it seems as if these rules are a little harsh. L5R already is stingy with its points, but giving the PC only 25 AND 1 rank in all stats (except family & school bonus traits) seems to be way too stingy. Even if not doing a Topaz Championship, and just doing a normal Gempukku campaign. Assuming you can take 5 points of disads, and don't want any advantages; your now 30 points are best spent on stats, SO YOU DON'T DIE! you can up 3 stats for 24-28 points depending on whether you upped void or not. This leaves you with only 6-2 points to spend on buying skills, most likely your other school skills that you would normally get for free. Now, to get up to the base start for a normal Samurai (not including the 40xp you start with) you would need between 33-37xp from your Gempukku, which is probably only enough for one or two adventures. If you include the 40xp, you would need 73-77xp until you were at the base of a normal Samurai. Now, don't know how much xp is normal for a session, but my GMs typically give between 3-10. This means that you would need to have over seven sessions on one adventure.
If the characters were not starting out at their Gempukku, and instead were starting out at age 8 or lower, these numbers would be acceptable.
Personally, I would let characters build a normal, rank 1 samurai, with no glory, no katana (reward for Gempukku), no status, no school technique, and possibly less honor than a normal character. Then reward them with their Katana and School technique, instead of xp (or reduce the xp gain). Thoughts?
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 11, 2017 15:06:37 GMT -8
That doesn't sound unreasonable. Personally, I'd just allow a standard starting character. Their gempukku is their passage to adulthood, so they should be fully trained and ready for their Clan's particular trial.
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Post by the0gekko0state on Jan 11, 2017 15:07:09 GMT -8
See I thought that they went to their Gempukku around age 8 or so. I looked it up on the wiki and it says around 14. I agree with you it does seem a little stingy. It does say "The character begins with 4 of the Skills that a starting samurai receives from their School training". Not sure if you missed it in your post or I'm not reading it well lol. It's almost something I want to test now. I suppose that character at rank 0 wouldn't be having the same kind of adventures as rank 1 but what's the point then.
I can almost see using this to run more introductory adventures than full scale rank 1 characters. Because they wouldn't be used to all the same norms as rank 1s. Hmmm I'll have to give this more thought. Some of the posts on the L5R sub forum really make me want to play again.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 0:40:19 GMT -8
If I remember correctly when SirGuido ran the Topaz Championship for some of us Jackers we didn't use the rank zero rules but went with something like rank 1 stats minus our school technique. That seemed to work quite well and we didn't feel underpowered during the adventure. Age wise I would definitely go with teenager as opposed to younger, means you stand a chance against adults plus lets you bring in romance angles into the game.
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SirGuido
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Preferred Game Systems: L5R, Traveller, Fate Accelerated, Masks
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Favorite Species of Monkey: Anything in a Cage.
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 12, 2017 2:28:29 GMT -8
If I remember correctly when SirGuido ran the Topaz Championship for some of us Jackers we didn't use the rank zero rules but went with something like rank 1 stats minus our school technique. That seemed to work quite well and we didn't feel underpowered during the adventure. Age wise I would definitely go with teenager as opposed to younger, means you stand a chance against adults plus lets you bring in romance angles into the game. That's almost exactly right. Once the championship was over you guys were full fledged rank one samurai. The idea being like jimbo said... you're fully trained, just looking to prove you're an adult. I always thought the rank 0 rules were dumb UNLESS you were running a game of 10-12 year Olds still in their training.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 3:19:10 GMT -8
As I remember, most TN's are about 15. 4k2 hits that about 60% of the time. 60% seems to be the sweet spot for a lot of games. Getting your stat up to a 3 really improves those odds (85% for 4k3 and 93% for 5k3). So if we look at the rank 0 rules, you'll be lucky if you can get up to that 60% success rate, while rank 1 PC's could give themselves a reasonable chance (given they know what kind of tasks they will face) by upping the most used stats to 3 and putting 1-2 ranks in the correct skills. By contrast, a rank 0 PC would be lucky if they could be rolling 3k2 in the right areas for a 47% chance at success.
Of course, this only takes into account a simple TN of 15. I could see numbers being higher based on the competitve/elite bent of the topaz championship. This isn't just any gemmpuku, but the one the clans bring their top students to in order to show off. Thus it would be crazy that they weren't rank 1 (because that means they'd be bringing people who hadn't even mastered their schools technique, and thus shouldn't even be up for graduation). Gempuku is supposed to be a test to make sure you have all the skills you need to graduate, not a place to learn half of what they've been trying to teach you for four years.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 12, 2017 14:35:38 GMT -8
I think you only have to look at what the different Clans put their samurai through in their gempukku. The Crab send their bushi out into the Shadowlands alone to take the head of a Shadowlands creature; there's no way a rank 0 character is coming back from that! The gempukku is their graduation from their school, a validation of their skills and their worth and marks their passage to adulthood. The Topaz Championship is the most prestigious gempukku there is, so only the most skilled will be put forward for it, as becoming Topaz Champion is not only a great personal honour, but also brings great honour for your Clan.
I like and have used it as the backdrop for an intro game. All the Clans are present, so you can RP plenty of inter-Clan rivalry and give new players a glimpse of the politics and social manoeuvring that goes on at such an event. 'Cos I'm an L5R nerd, I made three pregens for each Great Clan, and gave the players the choice of who they wanted to play, after running through each Clan for five minutes. In the last one I ran, the players chose a Kuni Shugenja, a Mirumoto bushi, an Utaku Battle Maiden, a Shiba bushi and a Shosuro Infiltrator. The Shiba player won the tournament, beating the Mirumoto player in the final duel of the Iaijutsu tournament. The big shock was the Kuni player deciding to take part in the Iaijutsu competition and beating a Kakita bushi due to my rolling all 2's 3's & 4's!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2017 23:07:02 GMT -8
I think you only have to look at what the different Clans put their samurai through in their gempukku. The Crab send their bushi out into the Shadowlands alone to take the head of a Shadowlands creature; there's no way a rank 0 character is coming back from that! The gempukku is their graduation from their school, a validation of their skills and their worth and marks their passage to adulthood. The Topaz Championship is the most prestigious gempukku there is, so only the most skilled will be put forward for it, as becoming Topaz Champion is not only a great personal honour, but also brings great honour for your Clan. I like and have used it as the backdrop for an intro game. All the Clans are present, so you can RP plenty of inter-Clan rivalry and give new players a glimpse of the politics and social manoeuvring that goes on at such an event. 'Cos I'm an L5R nerd, I made three pregens for each Great Clan, and gave the players the choice of who they wanted to play, after running through each Clan for five minutes. In the last one I ran, the players chose a Kuni Shugenja, a Mirumoto bushi, an Utaku Battle Maiden, a Shiba bushi and a Shosuro Infiltrator. The Shiba player won the tournament, beating the Mirumoto player in the final duel of the Iaijutsu tournament. The big shock was the Kuni player deciding to take part in the Iaijutsu competition and beating a Kakita bushi due to my rolling all 2's 3's & 4's! Thus why every good duelist takes luck as an advantage. Its one of those options that is so "no shit, everyone should take this" that it should probably be removed or cost significantly more.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 13, 2017 16:40:06 GMT -8
I think you only have to look at what the different Clans put their samurai through in their gempukku. The Crab send their bushi out into the Shadowlands alone to take the head of a Shadowlands creature; there's no way a rank 0 character is coming back from that! The gempukku is their graduation from their school, a validation of their skills and their worth and marks their passage to adulthood. The Topaz Championship is the most prestigious gempukku there is, so only the most skilled will be put forward for it, as becoming Topaz Champion is not only a great personal honour, but also brings great honour for your Clan. I like and have used it as the backdrop for an intro game. All the Clans are present, so you can RP plenty of inter-Clan rivalry and give new players a glimpse of the politics and social manoeuvring that goes on at such an event. 'Cos I'm an L5R nerd, I made three pregens for each Great Clan, and gave the players the choice of who they wanted to play, after running through each Clan for five minutes. In the last one I ran, the players chose a Kuni Shugenja, a Mirumoto bushi, an Utaku Battle Maiden, a Shiba bushi and a Shosuro Infiltrator. The Shiba player won the tournament, beating the Mirumoto player in the final duel of the Iaijutsu tournament. The big shock was the Kuni player deciding to take part in the Iaijutsu competition and beating a Kakita bushi due to my rolling all 2's 3's & 4's! Thus why every good duelist takes luck as an advantage. Its one of those options that is so "no shit, everyone should take this" that it should probably be removed or cost significantly more. Don't know that I necessarily agree with that. I'll take the Luck advantage if it makes sense for the character, but I've played duellists with more interesting advantages.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2017 23:02:38 GMT -8
What makes sense for the character is whatever you want to argue for. You aren't taking a preexisting character and making stats to fit their narrative. Besides, luck doesn't change the narrative. If you use luck in a duel to get a better roll, that better roll isn't narrated as some kind of fluke. It's just a second chance at a highly critical roll. Anyone who knew they were going to be making critical rolls that would change the story would be well advised to have luck as an advantage, just like they'd be advised to spend void on that roll. You're trying to jump a chasm and will fall to your death if you don't make the TN? Luck.
L5R 4th is not set up well to handle critical moments where failure is possible. It has no fail forward or succeed at a cost saftey net. Luck as a mechanism for rerolls is a saftey net against bad rolls. Nothing is guarenteed, and trying something outside of your ability is inadvisable, but it can give you the confidence to take on a roll that should be within your ability that has dire consequences.
Other advantages may be more interesting, but luck gives you the confidence and tools to play your character (like a real samurai: no fear). Luck is what elevates a character from a red shirt who has no control of their fate, to a protagonist.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 14, 2017 10:07:41 GMT -8
I think you only have to look at what the different Clans put their samurai through in their gempukku. The Crab send their bushi out into the Shadowlands alone to take the head of a Shadowlands creature; there's no way a rank 0 character is coming back from that! The gempukku is their graduation from their school, a validation of their skills and their worth and marks their passage to adulthood. The Topaz Championship is the most prestigious gempukku there is, so only the most skilled will be put forward for it, as becoming Topaz Champion is not only a great personal honour, but also brings great honour for your Clan. I like and have used it as the backdrop for an intro game. All the Clans are present, so you can RP plenty of inter-Clan rivalry and give new players a glimpse of the politics and social manoeuvring that goes on at such an event. 'Cos I'm an L5R nerd, I made three pregens for each Great Clan, and gave the players the choice of who they wanted to play, after running through each Clan for five minutes. In the last one I ran, the players chose a Kuni Shugenja, a Mirumoto bushi, an Utaku Battle Maiden, a Shiba bushi and a Shosuro Infiltrator. The Shiba player won the tournament, beating the Mirumoto player in the final duel of the Iaijutsu tournament. The big shock was the Kuni player deciding to take part in the Iaijutsu competition and beating a Kakita bushi due to my rolling all 2's 3's & 4's! When I ran the Topaz Championship for listeners, a Hida Bushi won the tournament. This is one of the reasons I love L5R so much. With the exploding dice and Void, you can never count anyone out.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 14, 2017 10:10:21 GMT -8
What makes sense for the character is whatever you want to argue for. You aren't taking a preexisting character and making stats to fit their narrative. Besides, luck doesn't change the narrative. If you use luck in a duel to get a better roll, that better roll isn't narrated as some kind of fluke. It's just a second chance at a highly critical roll. Anyone who knew they were going to be making critical rolls that would change the story would be well advised to have luck as an advantage, just like they'd be advised to spend void on that roll. You're trying to jump a chasm and will fall to your death if you don't make the TN? Luck. L5R 4th is not set up well to handle critical moments where failure is possible. It has no fail forward or succeed at a cost saftey net. Luck as a mechanism for rerolls is a saftey net against bad rolls. Nothing is guarenteed, and trying something outside of your ability is inadvisable, but it can give you the confidence to take on a roll that should be within your ability that has dire consequences. Other advantages may be more interesting, but luck gives you the confidence and tools to play your character (like a real samurai: no fear). Luck is what elevates a character from a red shirt who has no control of their fate, to a protagonist. In my mind, any real duelist just makes sure he has courtier and etiquette so he doesn't have to worry about losing. He loses a duel he can just smooth over the consequences later. A duelist is a courtier in bushi clothing as far as I'm concerned.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2017 11:22:30 GMT -8
Umm, what? You can't smooth over a duels results. The heavens decide such things, there are no take backsies. Also, this asumes only duels to first blood. There is no 'later' when you duel to the death. Also, duelists often are champions. If the problem could be solved by a courtier and their skills, then you wouldn't be needed.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 15, 2017 12:51:14 GMT -8
What makes sense for the character is whatever you want to argue for. You aren't taking a preexisting character and making stats to fit their narrative. Besides, luck doesn't change the narrative. If you use luck in a duel to get a better roll, that better roll isn't narrated as some kind of fluke. It's just a second chance at a highly critical roll. Anyone who knew they were going to be making critical rolls that would change the story would be well advised to have luck as an advantage, just like they'd be advised to spend void on that roll. You're trying to jump a chasm and will fall to your death if you don't make the TN? Luck. L5R 4th is not set up well to handle critical moments where failure is possible. It has no fail forward or succeed at a cost saftey net. Luck as a mechanism for rerolls is a saftey net against bad rolls. Nothing is guarenteed, and trying something outside of your ability is inadvisable, but it can give you the confidence to take on a roll that should be within your ability that has dire consequences. Other advantages may be more interesting, but luck gives you the confidence and tools to play your character (like a real samurai: no fear). Luck is what elevates a character from a red shirt who has no control of their fate, to a protagonist. Err, you don't need luck to play your character without fear. Surely you just need to have the courage to do that as a player. If you feel you always have to take the Luck advantage because you have to ensure you have the best chance not to fail a critical role, then arguably you really need to take it for every character. If that's the way you play L5R, good luck to you in your games. Personally, I don't agree with you that Luck is what elevates a character from a red shirt. For me, the difference between so-called redshirt and a player-character is the player. That's what makes then a protagonist, not an Advantage.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2017 22:34:22 GMT -8
yojimbohawkins Is the GM also not a player? It's not like NPC's are run by a computer. The only difference is the amount of attention NPC's get vs PC's (and some games allow players to get multiple characters). The very reason why people get pissed off when a GMPC or a Mary Sue NPC comes along is that they steal the limelight from the players. Luck is just one tool that helps draw that limelight to you. As for just playing as if you were fearless, I call that unwise. Those PC's end up dead, quickly. And I don't know about you, but I don't have enough gas in my tank to make 10 different characters while I die from making poor decisions. Luck won't allow you to punch above your weight class, but it will protect you from the lower outlier of rolls. Because luck is limited to a number of rolls per session, it is a great way to offer protection without abuse (blow it on trying to get a rediculous roll and you won't have it when you need it).
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