G.I. Joe
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 147
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, FATE, GURPS
Currently Playing: Isawa Miriko: Split soul made whole again... with memory issues. Homura (Formerly Isawa Kiyoi) - wandering fire Priestess; Girart - a GURPS low-tech combat monkey w/19ST
Currently Running: Fushigina Ronin (L5R 4th ed)
Favorite Species of Monkey: Winston
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Post by G.I. Joe on Jan 20, 2017 10:26:31 GMT -8
Wait... they used stealth and GAINED honor?! Glory would be acceptable, but HONOR?! And also being covered with 1/2 person blood, especially one that was using Maho (and therefore might already be tainted) would be a much bigger issue. Or should be.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jan 20, 2017 10:47:03 GMT -8
OK, so I'm just trolling now, but:
and:
Anyone else see see the irony there?
(And no, I'm not Asian, but then I don't say "Finally, I think you don't understand eastern culture.")
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 23:28:14 GMT -8
And playing the Trump card is just not cricket. No idea what "just not cricket" means. I will say though, that "Wrong", has become a trumpism. SirGuido may not have liked the comparison, but it wasn't out of left field. I could very easilly see the duel we are talking about go either way after the fact. One side could try to make the other look like bullies, but that side could just as easilly outmaneuver them into looking like sore losers. It's a propaganda war, and would likely be largely determined by alliances. Simply playing offense opens the rival clan up to further humiliation if their tactic fails. It could succeed though. Consider for a moment that this crane "bully" is in the winter court of the Lion. The Crane gets into it with a Yasuki (Crab clan) and a challenge to duel is issued. The Yasuki side loses the duel and then tries to make the crane look bad. The only problem is that the Crane, in this case, were acting on behalf of their Lion allies. So when Yasuki pushes the issue in court, he suddenly finds his host arrayed against him, along with all the other clans who horse traded to have this crane fight duels on their behalf! Because duelists are a commodity of the Crane, and Crane courtiers are all about finding out who needs a favor. But that is just one way it could go. Just as easilly as a Lion host could insist on a duel being the result of heavenly decree and that the aggrieved party is out of line, it could go as SirGuido posited. I realized that some of my assumptions weren't true in all cases. The situation mattered. Looking at Jimbo's story, I don't come to the same conclusion as him. Just because someone thinks something does not mean they have good justification for it. And often times the case will need to be made multiple times before thought it given and a new understanding can be reached. Argueing is reflexive for a lot of people. They will defend their stance without any consideration given to the other side. It's something I'm trying to break out of myself. I had to get an example of SirGuido's side of things before it clicked for me and I realized there was room for more outcomes, rather than just reconfirming my previous beliefs. It is only by challenge, often repeated challenge, that many beliefs can be shifted. I would have challenged not only the Kami as witness, but also the use of stealth. Do we slink like fearful men, or do we do our "duty" with pride? As far as the kami as witness, I would have brought up the fact that it is possible for kami to be corrupted or give confusing visions. The real maho user could have used the kami to make it seem like someone else was responsible, and in so doing made sure they stayed hidden. I do agree with them that if I had evidence of a maho user, I would do my duty first and ask permission later. That said, I wouldn't ask permission while covered in blood. Cleansing yourself is important spiritually as well as to not offend your host. I'm sure the local samurai would prefer you not come into his home while covered in tainted blood. It's not as if you must see him immediately, since you've already killed the emergency. Besides, runners do exist. If you needed to send word right away, you wouldn't even need to wait until the killing was done. You could send your runner while you were doing the deed. I would point out all of this not because I needed to be right or enforce my views of the world. I would point it out because it has important implications for the setting. I would point out that the kami are not evidence enough, and there could be consequences if we investigated without first meeting with the local samurai. It could be taken as a slight that your group stepped in and did that samurai's duty for him. It would make him seem weak, to rely on foreign aid. Being an Otomo (an imperial), that might be a disgrace he has to seek satisfaction for. And that is how blood feuds start. So we go to him first so that he can save face and not be forced into doing something none of us will be happy about. It makes a difference. Is this the D&D story of the traveling heroes? Or is this the L5R story where the 'heroes' get in over their heads when all the lords they've slighted come together to see their lives destroyed? Imagine the parties surprise when they come into an Imperial city to discover the Imperial Governor or Magistrate has it out for them, because Otomo-San, who committed sepukku, was their cousin. He knows it is their fault that things turned out as they did and begin setting out to frame them or block them from court. Either way, it could easilly end badly for the PC's. That would be a very samurai story. Young fools take action without thinking of the consequences and it places them in the same situation as the person they didn't consider. Perhaps they wouldn't be trying to cleanse their shame if they had only stopped to think about poor Otomo-San and his honor. But alas, karma is a bitch.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 20, 2017 23:41:46 GMT -8
OK, so I'm just trolling now, but: and: Anyone else see see the irony there? (And no, I'm not Asian, but then I don't say "Finally, I think you don't understand eastern culture.") Irony in changing ones position? If I make a mistake, I will correct it when and if I find out I made it. There is no irony in growth. I don't measure myself by staying true to a position that has crumbled beneath me. Learning is different than flip flopping. I don't change because it's convenient to my agenda, but because I've reassessed what is the right position. That said, those two quotes don't contradict in full. The only part the would be an issue would be the part about 'absolutes'. The result of a duel is final. The issue is decided, and that issue cannot have a second review by rehashing it. You can only continue to butt heads over things outside that issue. SO if the duel was to determine if someone had lied, that can no longer be debated. What could be debated is the conduct sourounding the whole event. The duel decides that he lied, but he can counter by trying to make the other samurai look like a shithead. Perhaps he only lied so as to save embarrassment to the emperor! Now he could in turn attempt to make the other samurai look like the bad guy.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 21, 2017 14:17:48 GMT -8
And playing the Trump card is just not cricket. No idea what "just not cricket" means. I will say though, that "Wrong", has become a trumpism. SirGuido may not have liked the comparison, but it wasn't out of left field. Looking at Jimbo's story, I don't come to the same conclusion as him. Just because someone thinks something does not mean they have good justification for it. And often times the case will need to be made multiple times before thought it given and a new understanding can be reached. Argueing is reflexive for a lot of people. They will defend their stance without any consideration given to the other side. It's something I'm trying to break out of myself. I had to get an example of SirGuido's side of things before it clicked for me and I realized there was room for more outcomes, rather than just reconfirming my previous beliefs. It is only by challenge, often repeated challenge, that many beliefs can be shifted. I would have challenged not only the Kami as witness, but also the use of stealth. Do we slink like fearful men, or do we do our "duty" with pride? As far as the kami as witness, I would have brought up the fact that it is possible for kami to be corrupted or give confusing visions. The real maho user could have used the kami to make it seem like someone else was responsible, and in so doing made sure they stayed hidden. I do agree with them that if I had evidence of a maho user, I would do my duty first and ask permission later. That said, I wouldn't ask permission while covered in blood. Cleansing yourself is important spiritually as well as to not offend your host. I'm sure the local samurai would prefer you not come into his home while covered in tainted blood. It's not as if you must see him immediately, since you've already killed the emergency. Besides, runners do exist. If you needed to send word right away, you wouldn't even need to wait until the killing was done. You could send your runner while you were doing the deed. I would point out all of this not because I needed to be right or enforce my views of the world. I would point it out because it has important implications for the setting. I would point out that the kami are not evidence enough, and there could be consequences if we investigated without first meeting with the local samurai. It could be taken as a slight that your group stepped in and did that samurai's duty for him. It would make him seem weak, to rely on foreign aid. Being an Otomo (an imperial), that might be a disgrace he has to seek satisfaction for. And that is how blood feuds start. So we go to him first so that he can save face and not be forced into doing something none of us will be happy about. It makes a difference. Is this the D&D story of the traveling heroes? Or is this the L5R story where the 'heroes' get in over their heads when all the lords they've slighted come together to see their lives destroyed? Imagine the parties surprise when they come into an Imperial city to discover the Imperial Governor or Magistrate has it out for them, because Otomo-San, who committed sepukku, was their cousin. He knows it is their fault that things turned out as they did and begin setting out to frame them or block them from court. Either way, it could easilly end badly for the PC's. That would be a very samurai story. Young fools take action without thinking of the consequences and it places them in the same situation as the person they didn't consider. Perhaps they wouldn't be trying to cleanse their shame if they had only stopped to think about poor Otomo-San and his honor. But alas, karma is a bitch. Thanks for pointing out what I already know. My point was that making a big deal about how I'm right and they're wrong is just going to get me kicked out of the group in that situation. Everyone else, including the GM, is happy to play the game in that particular way. I know I was right, by my own experience and history with the game, but no-one wants to be lectured about how wrong they are, so there was nothing to be gained by creating bad feeling, which is what would have happened. However, as we rotate GM, when it comes to my turn, I'll be running L5R. I have a series of social encounters planned to highlight certain aspects of Rokugani culture. The group has three shugenja, so some spiritual and meta-physical things are going to crop up for them to deal with. The Moto is married to a Miya, so there will be expectations of him that he may not expect. I plan to try education, rather than confrontation, and hopefully make our game the richer for it. And come on, fella. You know comparing someone to Trump could cause offence. To suggest otherwise is somewhat disingenuous, don't you think?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 22:22:54 GMT -8
yojimbohawkins You don't think forcing your version on them is going to be any better because you are GM? Why wouldn't they kick you then? It conflict is on your horizon, than I know I'd rather it happen before I became the "bad guy" aka the GM. I doubt their going to take their honor loss for sneaking about like ninja and showing up to court drenched in blood without comment. If it were me, I'd rather set the record straight before it was my turn to crack the whip. Otherwise I wouldn't run L5R for them, because if it is too sensitive to touch now, later will just look like I'm being an authoritative dick.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 22, 2017 12:37:02 GMT -8
yojimbohawkins You don't think forcing your version on them is going to be any better because you are GM? Why wouldn't they kick you then? It conflict is on your horizon, than I know I'd rather it happen before I became the "bad guy" aka the GM. I doubt their going to take their honor loss for sneaking about like ninja and showing up to court drenched in blood without comment. If it were me, I'd rather set the record straight before it was my turn to crack the whip. Otherwise I wouldn't run L5R for them, because if it is too sensitive to touch now, later will just look like I'm being an authoritative dick. Jaysus, you're a patronising fellow. Do you really think I'm going to roll up to the table, slam down my books and roar "Strap in, bitches! Here's how you REALLY play L5R!" Who said anything about forcing anything? It seems to me that you're making some pretty big assumptions about me there. Kindly do me the favour of assuming that I'm not stupid. Education, not confrontation. Didn't you read that bit? And by the way, the only one being an authoritative dick is you.
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