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Post by zoomfarg on Jan 17, 2017 1:42:56 GMT -8
Based on threads on the FFG forum, I have a quick question about L5R 5e, assuming we ever get to see such a thing.
Hypothetically, if a fifth edition of L5R had a different core (dice) mechanic (i.e. not R&K)--assuming the mechanic was good and supported the things you like about L5R--would you refuse to play on principle because it wasn't R&K?
In other words, does anyone say "R&K OR BUST!" ?
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Jan 17, 2017 3:24:26 GMT -8
The key phrase is "assuming the mechanic was good". I think R&K is perfect for the setting (I never thought it suppported swash-buckling as well, in 7th Sea). I'm not SOOO wedded to R&K that I wouldn't take a look at fifth ed. but let's just say they can take as long as they like before announcing a new edition, as 4th works for me just fine, and I don't want to choose.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2017 5:15:35 GMT -8
I enjoy R&K and will always associate it with L5R (even though I've only ever played 4th Ed) so if a new system introduced a different mechanic I'd feel a little put off by it. One of the big points for me would be if they're willing to change the core mechanic what else is going to change? Will it still be L5R or will it end up being a different samurai game under the same brand. That would be my main concern. Star Wars for example has handled shifting systems because the core of the game has always been the setting not the system. L5R though has always been the combination of both.
Incidentally I would be interested to see what a C+ or PbtA take on samurai would look like, I think the fail forward or succeed with complication approaches would work well with the idea of bushido representing impossible ideals. I just don't know if the resulting game would still feel like L5R.
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Post by ericfromnj on Jan 17, 2017 7:14:09 GMT -8
I think I will be perfectly happy staying with 4e just as I am perfectly happy staying with Star Wars D6.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 18, 2017 16:43:28 GMT -8
I love L5R more than I love roll and keep, but I do very much enjoy roll and keep. It would have to be a better system and a better dice mechanic for me to switch though.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Jan 22, 2017 14:28:56 GMT -8
I will buy the corebook, assuming there is one, and take it from there.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 1:12:11 GMT -8
I'm not a fan of roll and keep as it currently exists. My problems with it are as follows:
1) One side of the equation (either traits or skills depending on the edition) is much more important than the other. You could have a skill of 7 (which is grandmaster level in my opinion), but only a trait of 2 and be beat out constantly by someone with 4 skill and 4 trait. Going back to keeping skill just makes your stats matter very little. I don't see how this is a fixable issue without changing the basics of how roll and keep works.
2) Because raises are called before the roll is made, exploding dice are meaningless on most rolls. It doesn't matter if you rolled a 100 with your exploding dice if you called no raises (except for damage where raises aren't used). Why use exploding dice if you are not going to let the players gain the benefits of their high rolls?
3) Exploding dice are not always desirable. While it might be fun to get a really big hit in, turnabout it fair play under the current rules. I've heard stories of samurai being killed by a rock thrown by a peasant child because of exploding dice. Given their small return, I'd get rid of exploding dice or cap them to a single explosion per die.
4) Roll and keep is harder to track mathematically than other systems. I use a website when I want to look at probability in L5R, and I just don't think it need to be that complicated, given that the dice system doesn't do anything special (its just single axis resolution).
Possible solutions:
1) Give an option for calling raises after the roll. Maybe they are 1 for 5 before buy 1 for 10 after. Thus you still have a reason to gamble, but don't lose out when you hit it big on explosions.
2) Restrict explosions to PCs (at least for damage).
These don't fix all the issues (1 & 4 are still an issue), but it would go a long way towards making the current system more fun.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Feb 3, 2017 14:36:40 GMT -8
I'm not a fan of roll and keep as it currently exists. My problems with it are as follows: 1) One side of the equation (either traits or skills depending on the edition) is much more important than the other. You could have a skill of 7 (which is grandmaster level in my opinion), but only a trait of 2 and be beat out constantly by someone with 4 skill and 4 trait. Going back to keeping skill just makes your stats matter very little. I don't see how this is a fixable issue without changing the basics of how roll and keep works. 2) Because raises are called before the roll is made, exploding dice are meaningless on most rolls. It doesn't matter if you rolled a 100 with your exploding dice if you called no raises (except for damage where raises aren't used). Why use exploding dice if you are not going to let the players gain the benefits of their high rolls? 3) Exploding dice are not always desirable. While it might be fun to get a really big hit in, turnabout it fair play under the current rules. I've heard stories of samurai being killed by a rock thrown by a peasant child because of exploding dice. Given their small return, I'd get rid of exploding dice or cap them to a single explosion per die. 4) Roll and keep is harder to track mathematically than other systems. I use a website when I want to look at probability in L5R, and I just don't think it need to be that complicated, given that the dice system doesn't do anything special (its just single axis resolution). Possible solutions: 1) Give an option for calling raises after the roll. Maybe they are 1 for 5 before buy 1 for 10 after. Thus you still have a reason to gamble, but don't lose out when you hit it big on explosions. 2) Restrict explosions to PCs (at least for damage). These don't fix all the issues (1 & 4 are still an issue), but it would go a long way towards making the current system more fun. You raise a couple of interesting points there. On 1: it costs quite a bit more XP to raise a trait than it costs to raise a skill, so there is a modicum of balance there, I would say. On 2: that's an interesting way to look at it. Personally, I've never thought of it in that way, but I always remind the players of the ability to call raises if required. I like exploding dice mechanics, so I'm not too bothered myself, but it's food for thought. On 3: I quite like the fact that a peasant child could kill a samurai with a thrown rock. For me, combat should have real consequences, so fighting is meaningful, as it should be. On 4: I don't think I've ever spent time working out probabilities before I roll the dice. It seems to be a bit too much like 'roll-play", but each to their own.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2017 20:37:13 GMT -8
On 1: it costs quite a bit more XP to raise a trait than it costs to raise a skill, so there is a modicum of balance there, I would say. On 2: that's an interesting way to look at it. Personally, I've never thought of it in that way, but I always remind the players of the ability to call raises if required. I like exploding dice mechanics, so I'm not too bothered myself, but it's food for thought. On 3: I quite like the fact that a peasant child could kill a samurai with a thrown rock. For me, combat should have real consequences, so fighting is meaningful, as it should be. On 4: I don't think I've ever spent time working out probabilities before I roll the dice. It seems to be a bit too much like 'roll-play", but each to their own. 1) I do realize that as well. 3) Fighting can be meaningful without being wildly unpredictable. I think it hurts the game when these kinds of crazy events happen. It's a sign that either the system is broken or no roll should have been made because a roll would mean a chance of instant death. 4) I use them to make sure expectations match what exists on the sheet. It sucks to think you are prepared for something only to discover that you aren't.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 5, 2017 6:43:30 GMT -8
On 3: I quite like the fact that a peasant child could kill a samurai with a thrown rock. For me, combat should have real consequences, so fighting is meaningful, as it should be. So, I was reading the book recently and reread the weapon section on ninjutsu weapons. Neither Shuriken or Tsubute (throwing stones) use exploding damage dice or add strength to damage (without ninjutsu masteries). If a rank 1 ninja can't do it, no way in hell should a kid be able to. It seems there was reason to believe that not all damage rolls can or should explode all along.
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Post by G.I. Joe on Feb 22, 2017 12:43:43 GMT -8
1) One side of the equation (either traits or skills depending on the edition) is much more important than the other. You could have a skill of 7 (which is grandmaster level in my opinion), but only a trait of 2 and be beat out constantly by someone with 4 skill and 4 trait. Going back to keeping skill just makes your stats matter very little. I don't see how this is a fixable issue without changing the basics of how roll and keep works. Easy, roll (stat+skill)k(min(stat, skill)) if it is an unskilled roll, k1 with no explosions. This encourages builds that balance skills and stats, and makes not having a skill a much bigger issue. This might lead to some changing (lowering) of TNs to keep everything balanced. 2) Because raises are called before the roll is made, exploding dice are meaningless on most rolls. It doesn't matter if you rolled a 100 with your exploding dice if you called no raises (except for damage where raises aren't used). Why use exploding dice if you are not going to let the players gain the benefits of their high rolls? I don't know if it an official optional rule, but a rule my group always plays with is: one free raise for each 10 you get above the TN; definitely makes it more fun.
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