HyveMynd
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Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 16, 2017 20:19:30 GMT -8
In many ways PbtA moves are what define the particular setting. It's what gives the different games texture and extend the mechanics. The custom moves are the best part! THIS. This is why there are so many different PbtA games as opposed to a "universal PbtA system" that you can reskin. The trigger and outcome of moves is crucial to establishing, emulating, and reinforcing the tone and genre of a particular game.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2017 23:22:27 GMT -8
In many ways PbtA moves are what define the particular setting. It's what gives the different games texture and extend the mechanics. The custom moves are the best part! THIS. This is why there are so many different PbtA games as opposed to a "universal PbtA system" that you can reskin. The trigger and outcome of moves is crucial to establishing, emulating, and reinforcing the tone and genre of a particular game. I never understood what people had against universal systems. Wether the authors give it to you or not, the fact that the game is so hackable points to universal principles that underly it. Providing that framework also wouldn't remove or stop people from making those hacks. Fate core didn't stop Atomic Robo from being created, for example. I don't particularly disagree with you all on the fact that moves help codify setting and genre. I just tend to think that the system would work without them. At it's core a system exists to adjudicate. To be clear, I don't think MC moves are really so much a part of the system as a way to produce an intended play experiance. Storytelling is important, but distinct from system. Moves tell us what we want to adjudicate, how to do so, and what the acceptable range of results is. They provide a rule when the game could function with a ruling (not that I think it works better that way). They provide a type of social contract that provides structure and comfort. Going without would mean a more amorphous game, but not an incomplete one.
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mysticfedora
Supporter
The truth lies somewhere in between.
Posts: 281
Preferred Game Systems: 5E, PbtA, OSR
Currently Playing: LotFP, 5E
Currently Running: 5E, PbtA, Stars Without Number, CoC 7e
Favorite Species of Monkey: Kong
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Post by mysticfedora on Mar 17, 2017 6:19:08 GMT -8
THIS. This is why there are so many different PbtA games as opposed to a "universal PbtA system" that you can reskin. The trigger and outcome of moves is crucial to establishing, emulating, and reinforcing the tone and genre of a particular game. I never understood what people had against universal systems. Wether the authors give it to you or not, the fact that the game is so hackable points to universal principles that underly it. Providing that framework also wouldn't remove or stop people from making those hacks. Fate core didn't stop Atomic Robo from being created, for example. I don't particularly disagree with you all on the fact that moves help codify setting and genre. I just tend to think that the system would work without them. At it's core a system exists to adjudicate. To be clear, I don't think MC moves are really so much a part of the system as a way to produce an intended play experiance. Storytelling is important, but distinct from system. Moves tell us what we want to adjudicate, how to do so, and what the acceptable range of results is. They provide a rule when the game could function with a ruling (not that I think it works better that way). They provide a type of social contract that provides structure and comfort. Going without would mean a more amorphous game, but not an incomplete one. I like universal systems, I just don't think PbtA is one. I mean it has a common underlying mechanic, sure, but it isn't cut and paste. It sometimes "looks" like it is. I learned the hard way on that when developing Happiest Apocalypse.
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on Mar 17, 2017 6:24:43 GMT -8
Show me a PbtA game without moves, and I'll show you a game that's not actually PbtA.
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Post by jazzisblues on Apr 3, 2017 10:39:45 GMT -8
IMHO the true test of any PbtA game is this, can it be played with ONLY the basic moves. That's the acid test of whether the basic system holds up. By the rule of inverse corollary, the impetus on the designer (again in my experience) is to WANT to write play books and the play book moves first. This point is HIGH on my list of things I learned from working on Bad Streets.
JiB
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Post by jazzisblues on Apr 3, 2017 10:40:19 GMT -8
Show me a PbtA game without moves, and I'll show you a game that's not actually PbtA. concur
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Post by jazzisblues on Apr 3, 2017 10:47:10 GMT -8
In many ways PbtA moves are what define the particular setting. It's what gives the different games texture and extend the mechanics. The custom moves are the best part! THIS. This is why there are so many different PbtA games as opposed to a "universal PbtA system" that you can reskin. The trigger and outcome of moves is crucial to establishing, emulating, and reinforcing the tone and genre of a particular game. To expand on this idea: There are functionally two ways to extend AW. A skin changes the look and feel of play books and moves, but doesn't change the underlying rules. Basically the names are changed to protect the guilty but how it thinks is the same. A hack changes something fundamental about the way the rules think. Both are very valuable and viable ways to approach making something new out of AW. As an example, Bad Streets, would (in my mind) be classified as a hack because there are fundamental changes to the rules and how things like bonds are implemented, as well as adding a resource track for a detective's reputation. Most of the basic moves can be drawn directly back to basic moves in AW but there are some moves in AW that wouldn't apply, such as, "Open Your Mind..." Bad Streets wouldn't have any use for that, but being based on the idea of a TV show it has a, "Break the 4th Wall Move," that does something specific to the game. Just a bit of rambling waffle. Cheers, JiB
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D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
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Post by D.T. Pints on Apr 3, 2017 13:37:59 GMT -8
Would you fuckin' hippies quiet the damn drum circle down I'm trying to read my GURPS characters book! No stats 🙄...fuck me running...here I am desperately trying to Make Roleplaying Games Great Again! #MRGGA! Sad!
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Post by jazzisblues on Apr 8, 2017 9:40:05 GMT -8
Would you fuckin' hippies quiet the damn drum circle down I'm trying to read my GURPS characters book! No stats 🙄...fuck me running...here I am desperately trying to Make Roleplaying Games Great Again! #MRGGA! Sad! Ok GM TinyHands ... You go right ahead make rpg's great again ... I'll be over here having fun while you build your wall. In all candor though, PbtA games have attributes, but they boil it down to what the attribute means to the game. With the exception of Dungeon World which is trying really hard to be a PbtA representation of old school D&D PbtA games typically just have the + or - value which is really the important thing about the attribute anyway. Cheers, JiB
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2017 23:34:56 GMT -8
Would you fuckin' hippies quiet the damn drum circle down I'm trying to read my GURPS characters book! No stats 🙄...fuck me running...here I am desperately trying to Make Roleplaying Games Great Again! #MRGGA! Sad! Ok GM TinyHands ... You go right ahead make rpg's great again ... I'll be over here having fun while you build your wall. In all candor though, PbtA games have attributes, but they boil it down to what the attribute means to the game. With the exception of Dungeon World which is trying really hard to be a PbtA representation of old school D&D PbtA games typically just have the + or - value which is really the important thing about the attribute anyway. Cheers, JiB DW does something interesting by using a score that has a modifier: it removes raising your stat value as an option for taking an advance. Further, removes limitations on how much a single stat can be raised (in most PbtA games it is once as a basic advance and once for an advanced... advance). Many PbtA playbooks focus around a certain set of stats, allowing players to even substitute certain stats via moves. Dungeon world doesn't seem to carry this focus of making a playbook about a single (or two) stats. Thus it is harder to optimize or compensate for deficient stats, as the rate of growth there is not something you can prioritize.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2017 23:07:16 GMT -8
I ran into something interesting, a blog post by Vincent Baker himself that outright says that moves are not part of the core of an AW game (though they would be missed). Behold: Concentric Game Design
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