HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Mar 25, 2017 19:51:11 GMT -8
Our regular GM got sick and another player brought a friend who happened to be visiting, so instead of our Monsterhearts (possible) finale, I ran a Dungeon World one shot last night. I finally got to use the fantastic Servants of the Cinder Queen adventure module by Jason Lutes. (I love how this adventure is presented and hope to one day produce something similar.)
I had six players, none of whom had played DW before, though the majority (obviously) have a few sessions of Monsterhearts under their belts. We spent about half an hour making and introducing characters before I plopped them right into the action with the In Media Res intro. Into the catacombs beneath Hvitr's Horn!
The party consisted of a Cleric, a Wizard, a Druid, a Thief, a Bard, and a Ranger. We played for about four hours and everyone seemed to have a good time, though the party didn't get very far geographically speaking. Lots of misses, especially from the poor Bard saw things escalating rather quickly. The party was forced to deal with a horde of flaming skeletons that nearly trapped them right off the bat. But they prevailed, and the fluid nature of the module's locations meant I could plop things wherever I needed them, ensuring a boss fight of sorts before we had to wrap things up.
Six players is more than I prefer to run with as I feel spotlight time gets stretched too thin, but we managed. I had to cut between players more aggressively than usual to make sure everyone was involved, but everyone was cool. Players also spoke up if I had skipped over them, which I really appreciated; I hate to find out after the fact that someone had been sitting in silence for too long.
This game also reinforced my dislike for systems where a miss means nothing happens. (*cough* Looking squarely at you, Dungeons & Dragons. *cough*) So much action was generated by those numerous 6- results. I simply can't go back to games where the default rules are "Sorry, you missed. Next player."
|
|
tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
|
Post by tomes on Mar 25, 2017 20:32:09 GMT -8
First off... YYYYAAAHHHH!!! Fucken LOVE that module and its layouts, and like you, I can only dream of putting something like that together. I model my Lego adventures on that formatting. Seriously, I wrote my Fallout Shelter RPG to emulate this look and feel (see www.supernovembergames.com/tomes-of-tomes/2016/7/4/fallout-shelter-rpg-area-moves for a little teaser under the heading "The New Look"). This game also reinforced my dislike for systems where a miss means nothing happens. (*cough* Looking squarely at you, Dungeons & Dragons. *cough*) So much action was generated by those numerous 6- results. I simply can't go back to games where the default rules are "Sorry, you missed. Next player." NO SHIT! I just started playing in a friends D&D 5E thing he's doing, and last session I got "feared" and then over 4 rounds rolled 4 failed Wisdom saves. It was "Sorry, you missed. Next player." for realz (WITH the "z"). I was making this same gripe with another friend who mentioned his like of the miss in PbtA. Seriously, that session I was just falling asleep during those moments through pure boredom. It was super lame.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Mar 28, 2017 19:17:17 GMT -8
NO SHIT! I just started playing in a friends D&D 5E thing he's doing, and last session I got "feared" and then over 4 rounds rolled 4 failed Wisdom saves. It was "Sorry, you missed. Next player." for realz (WITH the "z"). I was making this same gripe with another friend who mentioned his like of the miss in PbtA. Seriously, that session I was just falling asleep during those moments through pure boredom. It was super lame. Yeah, no. That sucks. I get that in attrition-based combat a player losing a turn, therefore reducing the team's effectiveness, is something that happens. But holy fuck I wish it were not a thing. Getting paralyzed, scared, blinded, petrified, or whatever and having to sit there because your character can't do anything is no fun at all. One of the setup questions for SotCQ's In Media Res intro is " Who among you was caught under the rubble?" and the Bard stepped up and said he was. His first action was to try and get free. Great. Defy Danger with Strength because those rocks are heavy. The player rolled a miss, resulting in a winged homunculus thing flying over the head of the Dwarf Cleric and Halfling Druid guarding the tunnel mouth. (GM move: Put someone in a spot.) That gave the Human Ranger and Thief something to worry about. Back to the Bard who again rolls a 6- to shift the rocks pinning him down. At that point I made a decision. It's no fun to keep forcing the Bard to lay there, immobile while other characters are acting. So the GM move I made was Deal damage. I rolled a d6, did 5 (ouch) points of damage to the poor Bard, and said he gashed his leg up pretty badly while shifting the rubble but had finally gotten free. To keep him there, robbing the player of being able to participate, would have been a real dick move.
|
|
|
Post by kurtpotts on Mar 29, 2017 7:47:38 GMT -8
Glad to hear your game went well. I'll need to go check out the adventure. I'm actually going to be running for 6 players tonight and I'm a little nervous about everyone getting enough screen time. robbing the player of being able to participate, would have been a real dick move. So in my 2nd Dungeon World game. They went up against a lich and one of the players had drunk this soup that makes you look younger created by the lich. He rolled really shitty so I decided to try out a little mind control to see how the system would handle it. I decided that the lich gained three hold that she could spend to make him attack his buddies. Which she did a couple of times causing the barbarian to fight back and nearly kill him. Each time he attacked his friends I let him defy danger with wis to try and shake the enchantment but of course he failed all of those. In the moment I felt it worked OK and was reminiscent of a typical D&D game but it still felt like a dick move afterward for stealing his agency. Have you guys used mind control in DW and how did it go?
|
|
tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
|
Post by tomes on Mar 29, 2017 11:07:58 GMT -8
Glad to hear your game went well. I'll need to go check out the adventure. I'm actually going to be running for 6 players tonight and I'm a little nervous about everyone getting enough screen time. I mocked up some spotlight cards that I stole the idea from somewhere else. Feel free to use them if you feel they're useful: www.dropbox.com/sh/ptu1m2x74gp21nv/AABhDNfa0-cv89fTgmLYUAxLa?dl=0Personally, I've never used them, but have a few copies in my GoD bag just in case I'm playing in a VERY large game that isn't built for that many players. They're Standard card size, so you can fit them in Standard card sleeves if you have those around. I decided that the lich gained three hold that she could spend to make him attack his buddies. Which she did a couple of times causing the barbarian to fight back and nearly kill him. Each time he attacked his friends I let him defy danger with wis to try and shake the enchantment but of course he failed all of those. In the moment I felt it worked OK and was reminiscent of a typical D&D game but it still felt like a dick move afterward for stealing his agency. Have you guys used mind control in DW and how did it go? I haven't, but have seen a few conversations around this. Personally, I'd see if I could tweak the mechanics in such a way that you don't remove their agency... give them a choice. E.g.: The lich gained 3 hold. This gives the PC a choice to either do what you want, but know that the hold is being reduced. Or take a grave issue that removes a hold (once). Or take a little damage which does not reduce the hold, knowing it will come back (unless the Lich gets killed). You could even bake in that if the Lich dies that the PC will take some damage / hold because of the mind link or something, if you want to put additional pressure so the Lich death is not a release.
|
|
|
Post by kurtpotts on Mar 29, 2017 11:49:32 GMT -8
This gives the PC a choice to either do what you want, but know that the hold is being reduced. Or take a grave issue that removes a hold (once). Or take a little damage which does not reduce the hold, knowing it will come back (unless the Lich gets killed). You could even bake in that if the Lich dies that the PC will take some damage / hold because of the mind link or something, if you want to put additional pressure so the Lich death is not a release. That is sooo much better. I will definitely refer to this in the future when I want to unleash some mental hoodoo.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Mar 29, 2017 17:29:00 GMT -8
I like tomes suggested move, as it allows the player to retain agency. That is the key thing here, I think. GMs (often) control everything other than the PCs, but all the players control is their one PC. Taking control of a player's character feels like a dick move. Saying something like "Something bad is going to happen, but you still get to decide what." takes some of the sting out of it. As I said, I like the move tomes came up with, but I would do something a bit different. Like this: Roll the spending of hold into the trigger of the move. Provide a carrot in the form of XP to follow the Lich's command. Increase the damage die as the GM still had to spend a hold. I used mind control in my Tower of the Ice Witch scenario. The move looks like this: The miss clause there doesn't force the player to have their character comply. But it does say "You're going to have a bad time if you don't do what she says". As I said above, I feel the key thing with mind control moves is to have the player making the choices.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 0:11:16 GMT -8
Glad to hear your game went well. I'll need to go check out the adventure. I'm actually going to be running for 6 players tonight and I'm a little nervous about everyone getting enough screen time. robbing the player of being able to participate, would have been a real dick move. So in my 2nd Dungeon World game. They went up against a lich and one of the players had drunk this soup that makes you look younger created by the lich. He rolled really shitty so I decided to try out a little mind control to see how the system would handle it. I decided that the lich gained three hold that she could spend to make him attack his buddies. Which she did a couple of times causing the barbarian to fight back and nearly kill him. Each time he attacked his friends I let him defy danger with wis to try and shake the enchantment but of course he failed all of those. In the moment I felt it worked OK and was reminiscent of a typical D&D game but it still felt like a dick move afterward for stealing his agency. Have you guys used mind control in DW and how did it go? I don't understand why the lich should have hold. He's on the GM side of the screen, which means he should only have hold if a player move granted it to him. That asside, I think Defy Danger should have been the move used. Maybe wait until someone else rolls a miss to introduce a new threat! "Kill them all!", the lich hisses and you feel your legs begin to move as if pulled by overhead strings as you plod toward the cleric, looking out from eyes that feel like cages. "Get out of my head!", the player responds before asking if they can try to fight it off. "Sure, rolled to defy danger+wis." The same player could decide to try stabbing themselves to use the pain to try and break the spell. Maybe then they could roll+con instead. Of course, the other player who is getting attacked could respond to that attack, as could anyone else! Maybe someone wants to grab the mind controlled player and hold him down till he can break the enchantment. Defy Danger+str. You are no more taking away agency by mind controlling someone than you are by having a monster grab them. Shit happens. The important thing is that they can chose how they respond to it. Getting mind controlled by a lich is just one of the dangers of fighting a lich, no different from the flame breath of a dragon. "X is happening. What do you do?" Is the basic forumla of the game. Making a lot of custom moves really detracts from the openness of declaring your reaction because it forces you into a much tighter list of options. Plus it just adds a layer of complication to something that often doesn't need it. By allowing the player to make a move he can fail at, instead of letting the lich spend hold, you offer up the opportunity for that player to get XP upon failure. Either he defies the mind control and gets to have his freedom, or he gains XP for his trouble. Plus you gain the possibility of the GM getting to make moves, which keeps the game rolling. Imagine how cool it would be if you tried to fight off the mind control, failed, and got your spirit blasted out onto the astral plane. The Lich has your body and is using it to fight your friends, meanwhile you see the spirit that is animating the lich in front of you. Time for a ghost fight! Now that is a reason for a custom move. Ghost fight!
|
|
|
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Apr 9, 2017 13:06:51 GMT -8
You are no more taking away agency by mind controlling someone than you are by having a monster grab them. Shit happens. The important thing is that they can chose how they respond to it. Getting mind controlled by a lich is just one of the dangers of fighting a lich, no different from the flame breath of a dragon. "X is happening. What do you do?" Is the basic forumla of the game. Making a lot of custom moves really detracts from the openness of declaring your reaction because it forces you into a much tighter list of options. Plus it just adds a layer of complication to something that often doesn't need it. I've got to agree with you on this point. The rest I'm not too sure about, only because I have little knowledge of the Powered by the Apocalypse system. But, back onto the point, I've had talks with some GMs and Players that feel Mind Control powers take away agency and don't like to use them or don't like them used against them, but this feels very shortsighted. Mind Control is a tool within the game and players shouldn't be immune to it. To me, it has nothing to do with taking away agency as its a legitimate move by the GM, not them saying, you'll do it because I say so. I feel like I rambled there.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 16:07:51 GMT -8
You are no more taking away agency by mind controlling someone than you are by having a monster grab them. Shit happens. The important thing is that they can chose how they respond to it. Getting mind controlled by a lich is just one of the dangers of fighting a lich, no different from the flame breath of a dragon. "X is happening. What do you do?" Is the basic forumla of the game. Making a lot of custom moves really detracts from the openness of declaring your reaction because it forces you into a much tighter list of options. Plus it just adds a layer of complication to something that often doesn't need it. I've got to agree with you on this point. The rest I'm not too sure about, only because I have little knowledge of the Powered by the Apocalypse system. But, back onto the point, I've had talks with some GMs and Players that feel Mind Control powers take away agency and don't like to use them or don't like them used against them, but this feels very shortsighted. Mind Control is a tool within the game and players shouldn't be immune to it. To me, it has nothing to do with taking away agency as its a legitimate move by the GM, not them saying, you'll do it because I say so. I feel like I rambled there. A few things separate Dungeon World from trad games like D&D. One of the major ones is lack of combat system/structure. Players only take turns in-so-much as one person can only be heard at a time. There is no initiative. So what you traditionally lose when mind controlled (your turn) isn't lost in dungeon world. In D&D mind control might be something you save against every turn (if you are lucky, previous editions were not so nice), but if you fail nothing further happens. In dungeon world you are not limited to rolling a save. A wizard might decide that the lich may have his body, but he is still in control of his mind... where all of the spells are locked up. By presenting a specific rule for: "Here is how to break out of a grapple" you shoehorn everyone into using the same way to break said grapple. Not so in dungeon world.. unless you decide to make a custom move for it, which is why I am not a fan of a lot of custom moves.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Apr 9, 2017 17:33:06 GMT -8
You are no more taking away agency by mind controlling someone than you are by having a monster grab them. Shit happens. The important thing is that they can chose how they respond to it. Getting mind controlled by a lich is just one of the dangers of fighting a lich, no different from the flame breath of a dragon. "X is happening. What do you do?" Is the basic forumla of the game. Making a lot of custom moves really detracts from the openness of declaring your reaction because it forces you into a much tighter list of options. Plus it just adds a layer of complication to something that often doesn't need it. I've got to agree with you on this point. The rest I'm not too sure about, only because I have little knowledge of the Powered by the Apocalypse system. But, back onto the point, I've had talks with some GMs and Players that feel Mind Control powers take away agency and don't like to use them or don't like them used against them, but this feels very shortsighted. Mind Control is a tool within the game and players shouldn't be immune to it. To me, it has nothing to do with taking away agency as its a legitimate move by the GM, not them saying, you'll do it because I say so. I feel like I rambled there. Being grabbed by a monster or being hit by the flame breath of a dragon is different from being mind controlled. In the first two, the player retains full control of their character. They decide how they react to being grabbed or engulfed in flame. Being mind controlled means they don't control their character's reaction; the GM does. That's why it's called "mind control" and not "mind you-can-still-act-as-normal". Setting aside the fictional stuff for a moment though, this all came about because of the mechanical effects mind control powers often have. When a character gets hit with a mind control power, that usually means they are forced to take some kind of action or that another player, often the GM, decides what they do. Their usual player either doesn't get to make a meaningful choice, or sits there while someone else takes actions for their character. From a game perspective, and these are games, that is no fun. It's the same thing as being petrified, paralyzed, unconscious, scared, or any number of other effects that dictate a character's action and force the player to sit there doing nothing. So while it may be fictionally appropriate and a legitimate move or tool for GMs to use, it's no fun.
|
|
|
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Apr 9, 2017 17:52:37 GMT -8
I've got to agree with you on this point. The rest I'm not too sure about, only because I have little knowledge of the Powered by the Apocalypse system. But, back onto the point, I've had talks with some GMs and Players that feel Mind Control powers take away agency and don't like to use them or don't like them used against them, but this feels very shortsighted. Mind Control is a tool within the game and players shouldn't be immune to it. To me, it has nothing to do with taking away agency as its a legitimate move by the GM, not them saying, you'll do it because I say so. I feel like I rambled there. Being grabbed by a monster or being hit by the flame breath of a dragon is different from being mind controlled. In the first two, the player retains full control of their character. They decide how they react to being grabbed or engulfed in flame. Being mind controlled means they don't control their character's reaction; the GM does. That's why it's called "mind control" and not "mind you-can-still-act-as-normal". Setting aside the fictional stuff for a moment though, this all came about because of the mechanical effects mind control powers often have. When a character gets hit with a mind control power, that usually means they are forced to take some kind of action or that another player, often the GM, decides what they do. Their usual player either doesn't get to make a meaningful choice, or sits there while someone else takes actions for their character. From a game perspective, and these are games, that is no fun. It's the same thing as being petrified, paralyzed, unconscious, scared, or any number of other effects that dictate a character's action and force the player to sit there doing nothing. So while it may be fictionally appropriate and a legitimate move or tool for GMs to use, it's no fun. I respectfully disagree that it takes away fun. I think you're looking at it from a perspective of what you personally believe is fun or not fun. I have no problem with a GM having a mind control option that I have, so long as it's use consistently and fairly. It's a challenge to overcome, and there's plenty of fun to be had there. If I'm given a fair chance to resist it and it doesn't completely cripple my character for the long term, I don't see it as taking away my agency, but as adding element of uncertainty to the story I'm cooperatively involved in.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Apr 9, 2017 18:50:53 GMT -8
I find it hard to believe that anyone would describe sitting at the table doing nothing for several turns while your character is controlled by someone else as fun.
|
|
|
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Apr 9, 2017 19:32:18 GMT -8
It doesn't have to be complete control from the GM. One could still be rolling the dice, or whatever, while fulfilling the orders to the best of their abilities. It's roleplaying, there's plenty of ways to play it.
Also, I've had plenty of fun with that kind of scenario in games like Wraith, where another player takes over at random moments, as your Shadow (forget if that's the proper term. It's been a while), when it gets powerful enough.
Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean it's impossible.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2017 19:47:07 GMT -8
I find it hard to believe that anyone would describe sitting at the table doing nothing for several turns while your character is controlled by someone else as fun. I think the trick is to keep it from becoming a long term affliction where the character can't do anything. Part of the reason we even think of mind control this way is baggage from other RPG's that we need to forget. What is mind control? Is it taking control of your body in an almost possession like manner? Is it controlling your thoughts or emotions? What form it takes will inform the situation. Based on the idea of eating bad necromancer soup, maybe it's just putting you into a suggestive state. Regardless of what form the power takes though, the situation needs to remain fluid. It's no fun being inescapably grappled either. One of the reasons I put forth the example of being blasted out of your own body was that it allows the player to act once again. It's a form of the GM move 'separate them'. Everyone is back in the action and the mind controlled body is still on the rampage, creating a unique problem for the PC's still in the physical world. Another way you could handle mind control would be to break it down into multiple phases. Maybe the first time they fail to resist they become confused (the debility) as the landscape around them warps. The PC is back in the war with his old commander bellowing at him to take no prisoners as the undead approach. The commander being the lich and the undead the party. That's the reality floating around him, but it doesn't take away his agency just yet. Maybe it never does, instead inflicting more debilities on him as he fails to fight off the mind control. He still gets to take that swing at the lich, but he is 'stunned' upon seeing his blade through his commanders gut as he asks, "Why..?" with a betrayed look on his face.
|
|