clanhanna
Journeyman Douchebag
The Muffin
Posts: 221
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller, O.R.E, Mongoose Traveller
Currently Playing: Vampire: The Masquerade, Vampire: The Dark Ages, D&D 5e
Currently Running: Vampire: The Dark Ages
Favorite Species of Monkey: Peanut-buttery Rhesus
|
Post by clanhanna on Apr 13, 2017 7:44:53 GMT -8
**TRIGGER WARNING**This post WILL contain some concepts that are patently offensive, some that may be offensive to some people, and definitely some concepts that, in "polite society," would — at the very least — be seen as "in bad taste." You have been warned. ******************* Vampire: the Masquerade and Vampire: the Dark Ages are touted as games of personal horror. In the canon, what I have found the most horrifying isn't what a particularly sadistic Tzimisce fleshcrafted his victim into, or some Abyssal creature of the void summoned by an over-zealous Lasombra. It's the feeding restrictions of the Ventrue. In canon, there are some otherwise genteel characters who can only feed from: - people in love
- rape victims
- orphans
- virgins
- children
It gets particularly heinous when factoring in one of a Ventrue's favorite Backgrounds: Herd. In some of those cases, there is only one way to be SURE that your intended victim meets your needs. You can only feed from orphans? Bye-bye, Mommy and Daddy. People in love? Well, you probably are going to be stepping between those lovers. A lot. Rape victims? You get the point. My experience is that most players tend to be squeamish about the "rarified tastes" of the Ventrue, opting for such choices as: - Men between the ages of 18 to 26
- Beautiful people (Appearance rating 3+)
- Veterans of (insert conflict here)
- clergy
This gets especially bland when dealing with Ventrue antitribu, often couched in "it's stark contrast to the monstrous nature of the Sect." But I run a lot of these games, and Ventrue is a popular clan to play (I, myself, have never played a Ventrue, except as an NPC when running a game). And it is the morality questions that can make such a character a delightful challenge. But it also steps on the personal sensibilities of OTHER players in the group. It could be awkward, for instance to have a Jewish Ventrue who can only feed from other Jews... but is that MORE or LESS offensive than one who can only feed from gentiles? Or Muslims? Or bankers? (okay, that last one was bad) The feeding restriction can also get sticky (or dramatic) when another PC has the "Prey Exclusion" Flaw and a particular target falls into the Venn diagram between those two. But if the availability of the food source is too broad, or too mundane, or just too plentiful, it ceases to be a weakness. The ONLY time I have seen the Ventrue Clan Weakness come into play with any actual consequence was when a player forgot his character's restriction (the aforementioned men between 18-26) and grabbed a stripper. We debated about making it so that he had grabbed a male stripper instead of a woman, but the character thought it was better not to retcon, and he vomited up the blood instead, causing a scene. Rather than ask specific questions, I invite your thoughts and opinions on the subject.
|
|
|
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Apr 13, 2017 10:01:20 GMT -8
I think the phrase "only one way" is a bit hyperbolic. Granted there's going to be some skeevy methods involved in courting these people into a herd, but there's plenty of ways to find the proper dietary restrictions without crafting that person into the perfect meal.
I'll throw out an example using the restriction of rape victims being the feeding restriction. We'll call the Ventrue Vanessa. My torts professor has me using a lot of alliteration lately.
Vanessa Ventrue can only feed on rape victims, so she needs a herd as it's not going to be a feature that's readily apparent. Vanessa looks around and finds an organization that helps support victims and gets involved. She donates money, promotes the cause, etc. all in an effort to get access to the victims. It's no problem for her because what money and charm can't get her, Dominate and Presence will. So she has access to the victims and cultivates a herd from this support group.
Now this is still a deplorable act. Everything about it, is sociopathic and abusive. But vampires aren't human, and are in a slow descent to the Beast so horrible actions shouldn't really surprise us. Camarilla vampires tend to pride themselves on at least attempting to keep the Beast at bay, even if they are just as monstrous in private.
With all that said, there's every possiblilty that a Sabbat character may be doing what you're describing, not because he needs to, but because they see humans as something lesser, and it's fun to hurt and destroy.
This is one of the reasons why I've always agreed that Sabbat really only belong as enemies. Players have to get very dark to become the proper level of monstrous needed.
Also, as far as fleshcrafting not being more horrifying, it's akin to torture for the victim. The amount of pain they have to go through and the deplorable things done to them is beyond horrifying.
I encourage you to look up Sascha Vykos for a proper level of how horrifying the Tzimisce can be.
|
|
clanhanna
Journeyman Douchebag
The Muffin
Posts: 221
Preferred Game Systems: Storyteller, O.R.E, Mongoose Traveller
Currently Playing: Vampire: The Masquerade, Vampire: The Dark Ages, D&D 5e
Currently Running: Vampire: The Dark Ages
Favorite Species of Monkey: Peanut-buttery Rhesus
|
Post by clanhanna on Apr 13, 2017 15:25:33 GMT -8
Also, as far as fleshcrafting not being more horrifying, it's akin to torture for the victim. The amount of pain they have to go through and the deplorable things done to them is beyond horrifying. I encourage you to look up Sascha Vykos for a proper level of how horrifying the Tzimisce can be. I agree that fleshcrafting can be extremely horrifying. Tzimisce is my favorite Clan to play, and as such, I am quite familiar with Velya the Vivisectionist, Righteous Endeavour, Doktor Tötentanz, and especially Myca/Sascha Vykos through the Clan Novels (both series). But I find the psychological horror of Ventrue and their necessities, and yet CLAIMING the Path of Humanity to be more so. The Tzimisce are monsters, but they don't claim any different. Ventrue tend to see themselves, if not as at least human-like, then as Übermensch. But you do bring up a good point about courting support groups as a means of access to vulnerable targets. It's properly psychopathic, of course, but that fits the character.
|
|
|
Post by Wakefield on Apr 13, 2017 15:55:26 GMT -8
Also, as far as fleshcrafting not being more horrifying, it's akin to torture for the victim. The amount of pain they have to go through and the deplorable things done to them is beyond horrifying. Sorry for potentially derailing the topic, but would someone do me a favor and point to passages in the books that state that Vicissitude must necessarily be painful? The only reference I have seen to that is a cautionary passage in reference to Bonecrafting, which says that Fleschcrafting should be used in conjunction with it to avoid causing pain.
|
|
|
Post by Wakefield on Apr 13, 2017 15:57:16 GMT -8
The prey exclusion should be a complication at the end of the day, and exploring the limits of humanity through this flaw - say, through reflecting on the Kindred's role in perpetuating the violence responsible for creating victims suited to their exclusion - can make for rich roleplaying experiences. (This is provided, of course, that the proper lines and veils discussion has happened first.) clanhanna , I completely agree - the lengths that some Ventrue go to in order to satisfy their Prey Exclusion while telling themselves they are paragons of Humanity and nobility are perhaps even more disturbing than monstrous Tzimisce reveling in their monstrosity.
|
|
|
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Apr 13, 2017 15:57:28 GMT -8
But I find the psychological horror of Ventrue and their necessities, and yet CLAIMING the Path of Humanity to be more so. The Tzimisce are monsters, but they don't claim any different. Ventrue tend to see themselves, if not as at least human-like, then as Übermensch. This is actually what I see as the Sabbat's strongest argument against the Camarilla. That they are simply playing at human and they hide among the sheep because their puppet masters want them to. The Sabbat are open with their monstrous behavior because they believe in their superiority and the Camarilla is simply scrambling for the scraps that fall from the table. I think you are right about how it can feel more disturbing, and I think its because it can hit so close to home. Fleshcrafting is the realm of fantasy, but abuse (physical, mental, emotional, sexual) are all things that can affect us or people we know. It's a very real world horror that makes us uncomfortable, as it should. It's a byproduct of having empathy, which vampires play at, or at best struggle to maintain. Playing a vampire means you'll almost never look at a human as anything more than a means to an end. In a way, de-humanizing the victim. They would be nothing more than an object. Something to be used and discarded. I would imagine that is the mindset of the kinds of people that commit the crimes above. Its more horrifying because it's all too real, and for something that doesn't see the world around it as more than chattel, completely within the realm of possibility. Good thread man. Definitely has me thinking and evaluating things. I'd actually recently come up with a Ventrue that had a kind of despicable behavior we're talking about. He wasn't the average Ivory Tower Ventrue. Decided to focus more on the power and control aspect rather than money. He was embraced by an Anarch and was a street hustler. He could only feed on those that had been abused. His herd were all stolen from especially violent pimps, and I tried to play it as straight as possible, never trying to pretend this was some kind of noble act. He was a monster, and definitely on a line I had to tip toe across.
|
|
|
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Apr 13, 2017 16:02:35 GMT -8
Also, as far as fleshcrafting not being more horrifying, it's akin to torture for the victim. The amount of pain they have to go through and the deplorable things done to them is beyond horrifying. Sorry for potentially derailing the topic, but would someone do me a favor and point to passages in the books that state that Vicissitude must necessarily be painful? The only reference I have seen to that is a cautionary passage in reference to Bonecrafting, which says that Fleschcrafting should be used in conjunction with it to avoid causing pain. Was hoping to find it quickly but it seems its in one of my older books that I remember the book talking about how the warping of the bones and flesh causes pain. I will get back to you about it as soon as I find it. If nothing else, Tzimisce use it for physical and mental torture.
|
|
|
Post by Wakefield on Apr 13, 2017 16:03:37 GMT -8
Sorry for potentially derailing the topic, but would someone do me a favor and point to passages in the books that state that Vicissitude must necessarily be painful? The only reference I have seen to that is a cautionary passage in reference to Bonecrafting, which says that Fleschcrafting should be used in conjunction with it to avoid causing pain. Was hoping to find it quickly but it seems its in one of my older books that I remember the book talking about how the warping of the bones and flesh causes pain. I will get back to you about it as soon as I find it. If nothing else, Tzimisce use it for physical and mental torture. No rush! Thank you for going to the trouble
|
|
|
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Apr 13, 2017 16:04:55 GMT -8
Wakefield No Problem. It's a conundrum and it will drive me crazy until I find it.
|
|
|
Post by The Northman on Apr 13, 2017 17:22:11 GMT -8
The only thing I'd say for Ventrue with darker appetites is that herd can, in fact, be how they preserve their humanity.
Insert caveat about the implied inhumanity of feeding without consent, but...
X-victims? Bring a support group under your thrall. Orphans? Sponsor your own orphanage and use dominate so no one remembers a thing.
It's always going to be twisted, and a bit icky to say the least, because of the nature of the game and the intimate horrors it implies. But it's not necessarily any worse for the blue bloods.
|
|
|
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Apr 13, 2017 21:25:26 GMT -8
clanhannaSo I totally forgot about the Clan Ventrue novel and what a sick piece of crap Jan Pieterzoon was. Pieterzoons feeding restriction was rape victims. When his herd was destroyed the Sabbat, he used Dominate to arrange the rape and then erase the victims memories. That actually does answer a question I've had about Dominates memory erase level. I'd always wondered if it did or did not take away the trauma along with the memories. It might be more horrifying if you still had that trauma but no knowledge of why.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2017 0:59:57 GMT -8
I think there is a point you are all missing, the dark ages. It's easy in modern nights to find a support group for rape victims. That didn't exist in the dark ages. Orphanages and such would, but there are other issues to be found there. Many dark age vampires are religious and many orphanages are run by the church. While I'm sure that some of these feeding restrictions wouldn't be as harsh, many of them are much harder to deal with. Thus a quick trip into the land of squick to secure blood.
To be entirely fair though, many other clans might be just as bad. Why hunt every night when you can simply keep your chattel onhand? Just because you don't need a specific kind of person doesn't mean you aren't holding people against their will.
Also, you all misses the horror of feeding on children. They are just so very tiny. Not much blood to be had there. But you only take a little but. You aren't a monster after all. Then something happens. You have to spend more blood just to stay alive... but you didn't have much because you were reluctant to take to much. So you creep down into their bedrooms, looking like a corpse. Something overtakes you and the lights go out. Vanessa Ventrue isn't home anymore.
When you come around you feel so good. Oh, to be full, vitae singing in your veins! That's when you notice their corpses, flung aside as you pounced from one to the next, glutting yourself like a beast. Their once clean white sheets that you made sure they had are stained with their blood. You feel like you should feel something. The poor children! But you don't. Instead you notice a noise. Ba-boom. Ba-boom.
"Oh Darling", you hear yourself say as you turn toward the remaining child cowering in the corner. "Don't worry! Mommy loves you. Why.. she could just eat you up."
|
|
|
Post by Wakefield on Apr 14, 2017 11:47:30 GMT -8
I think there is a point you are all missing, the dark ages. It's easy in modern nights to find a support group for rape victims. That didn't exist in the dark ages. Orphanages and such would, but there are other issues to be found there. Many dark age vampires are religious and many orphanages are run by the church. While I'm sure that some of these feeding restrictions wouldn't be as harsh, many of them are much harder to deal with. Thus a quick trip into the land of squick to secure blood. To be entirely fair though, many other clans might be just as bad. Why hunt every night when you can simply keep your chattel onhand? Just because you don't need a specific kind of person doesn't mean you aren't holding people against their will. Also, you all misses the horror of feeding on children. They are just so very tiny. Not much blood to be had there. But you only take a little but. You aren't a monster after all. Then something happens. You have to spend more blood just to stay alive... but you didn't have much because you were reluctant to take to much. So you creep down into their bedrooms, looking like a corpse. Something overtakes you and the lights go out. Vanessa Ventrue isn't home anymore. When you come around you feel so good. Oh, to be full, vitae singing in your veins! That's when you notice their corpses, flung aside as you pounced from one to the next, glutting yourself like a beast. Their once clean white sheets that you made sure they had are stained with their blood. You feel like you should feel something. The poor children! But you don't. Instead you notice a noise. Ba-boom. Ba-boom. "Oh Darling", you hear yourself say as you turn toward the remaining child cowering in the corner. "Don't worry! Mommy loves you. Why.. she could just eat you up." You sure know how to write a horror story for this setting. *applauds amid shuddering*
|
|
|
Post by The Northman on Apr 14, 2017 19:14:27 GMT -8
You're right about the fact that I missed the idea of containing the conversation to Dark Age options, but I very much stand by the idea that it's all varying degrees of awful in the end. Especially in Dark Ages.
|
|
|
Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Apr 18, 2017 13:21:19 GMT -8
I think there is a point you are all missing, the dark ages. It's easy in modern nights to find a support group for rape victims. That didn't exist in the dark ages. Orphanages and such would, but there are other issues to be found there. Many dark age vampires are religious and many orphanages are run by the church. While I'm sure that some of these feeding restrictions wouldn't be as harsh, many of them are much harder to deal with. Thus a quick trip into the land of squick to secure blood. To be entirely fair though, many other clans might be just as bad. Why hunt every night when you can simply keep your chattel onhand? Just because you don't need a specific kind of person doesn't mean you aren't holding people against their will. Also, you all misses the horror of feeding on children. They are just so very tiny. Not much blood to be had there. But you only take a little but. You aren't a monster after all. Then something happens. You have to spend more blood just to stay alive... but you didn't have much because you were reluctant to take to much. So you creep down into their bedrooms, looking like a corpse. Something overtakes you and the lights go out. Vanessa Ventrue isn't home anymore. When you come around you feel so good. Oh, to be full, vitae singing in your veins! That's when you notice their corpses, flung aside as you pounced from one to the next, glutting yourself like a beast. Their once clean white sheets that you made sure they had are stained with their blood. You feel like you should feel something. The poor children! But you don't. Instead you notice a noise. Ba-boom. Ba-boom. "Oh Darling", you hear yourself say as you turn toward the remaining child cowering in the corner. "Don't worry! Mommy loves you. Why.. she could just eat you up." I wasn't really basing my argument on how horrifying it was or was not, but mostly that in the modern nights, Ventrue don't have to go out and do the work themselves, or make certain events happen. They go out and use tools at their disposal to surround themselves with the chattel that they need that are already there. You're not working with a small medieval village of people, but a city that is interconnected by cell phones, internet, support groups, and whatever else you might think of. Dark Ages is certainly a whole 'nother beast to conquer. No pun intended. Vampire, when played as intended by White Wolf/Onyx Path/what have you, is all about how far will you go to sate your Beast, while still remaining human. Humanity was not at it's best during these times, so the monsters that live among us were worse. I assume, Ventrue, being the nobles, often brought back the victims of raiding parties for their herd, for a herd like the above mentioned rape victims. They likely had more of a hand in the events that create the perfect herd, but that's a consequence of a time when the world was smaller but also less connected. War and armies ruled the day and were the most effective tools at the disposal of the High Clans. This whole thread has gotten me thinking about how much certain people gloss over various Clan Weaknesses. Most people just take a herd to circumvent a Ventrue's weakness but many don't think about where that herd comes from, or why they keep coming back to be fed on. It's definitely up there with one of the more inhuman Flaws when you sit down and think about it.
|
|