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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2017 2:23:40 GMT -8
HyveMynd - Right I can see where you're coming from now, when you said actions I read it as core 'doing things' such as normal attacks or skill rolls etc. Based on what you've said it sounds like your issue is what I'd describe as subsystems and I can see the argument about not wanting those all predefined in a way that they add unneeded complrxity (D&D 3.5 grapple rules for example). On the other hand I do think sometimes that PbtA can over simplify things by limiting choices to a relatively small number of moves. ilina - Nope, got to disagree with most of what you said there. There is nothing stopping those sort of approaches in other games or systems, the main difference (imo) with PbtA is that it codifies it into the system, on a miss you have to have consequences rather than it being more at the GMs discretion. As discussed previously I think that's both a strength and a weakness of the system, it takes some of the mental lifting off of the GM but can also be restrictive if certain elements of the miss or the move don't really gel with the action.
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HyveMynd
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Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on May 26, 2017 17:48:33 GMT -8
On the other hand I do think sometimes that PbtA can over simplify things by limiting choices to a relatively small number of moves. Do you have an example? I'm absolutely not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious which PbtA game made you feel that way. It's been pointed out to me that PbtA games are not "say yes, or roll the dice" type games. The GM doesn't really get to decide when a player should roll dice. If a move is triggered, it has to be resolved. But sometimes it can seem like a move hasn't been triggered, especially for games that have a relatively small number of moves. If that's the case though, it almost always means that the GM needs to make a move. So while some PbtA games can have a small number of player-facing moves, anything not covered by those moves essentially becomes "put it into the hands of the GM". Which is absolutely no different from the GM making up the effects of an action when players go "off list" for games that have lists of actions. The difference for me is how that feels. As more things in PbtA games are open to interpretation, it doesn't feel that jarring when the GM has to do some improv and make a GM move. It feels like a smoother transition. But for games with a list of concrete actions, it's more noticeable when the GM has to improv as a result of a player doing something not on the lst, and that is unsatisfying to me.
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HyveMynd
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Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
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Post by HyveMynd on May 26, 2017 19:11:40 GMT -8
Consolation prize for having to work on a Saturday: printing out The Black Hack on the office printer.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2017 12:18:00 GMT -8
On the other hand I do think sometimes that PbtA can over simplify things by limiting choices to a relatively small number of moves. Do you have an example? I'm absolutely not saying you're wrong, I'm just curious which PbtA game made you feel that way. It's been pointed out to me that PbtA games are not "say yes, or roll the dice" type games. The GM doesn't really get to decide when a player should roll dice. If a move is triggered, it has to be resolved. But sometimes it can seem like a move hasn't been triggered, especially for games that have a relatively small number of moves. If that's the case though, it almost always means that the GM needs to make a move. So while some PbtA games can have a small number of player-facing moves, anything not covered by those moves essentially becomes "put it into the hands of the GM". Which is absolutely no different from the GM making up the effects of an action when players go "off list" for games that have lists of actions. The difference for me is how that feels. As more things in PbtA games are open to interpretation, it doesn't feel that jarring when the GM has to do some improv and make a GM move. It feels like a smoother transition. But for games with a list of concrete actions, it's more noticeable when the GM has to improv as a result of a player doing something not on the lst, and that is unsatisfying to me. Not specifically and I'll freely admit that some of it may have come from not grokking the game at the time, which was Apocalypse World with players and GM who were all new to PbtA. Knowing PbtA better now I do wonder if some of those times were from when we strayed off genre.
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