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Post by vyrrk on Jun 7, 2017 11:51:15 GMT -8
Hey all,
So I'm running a savage worlds game for a large group (7 players) and they are all armed with 2d8 weapons. When I have played with smaller groups there is always ways to balance things on the fly. "Oh.. that one is a little tougher" "Oh 3 more extras join the fight" "Oh look... they all run away". With 7 people I'm afraid they will just mow through the whole encounter in 1 round.
I don't want to just jack up the toughness on everything. I've made that mistake before and it just feels like you can't do anything. Should I just make waves of enemies?
What are your tricks for balancing encounters in Savage Worlds?
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Post by ericfromnj on Jun 7, 2017 11:54:10 GMT -8
More mooks. More attacks on your players where dice may explode.
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Jun 7, 2017 13:16:40 GMT -8
I find that a lot of the one sheets have a good balancing of mook using the group size. So if you want something generally easy for the group that's [Number of players+1] Mooks. A little tougher would be [Number of players x 2+2]. So try that out.
Don't worry if they're mowing down the mooks, but remember to play your mooks smart. If they have guns then those mooks better hit cover just like everyone else. If your players are all melee fighters then mix it up with half melee and half ranged shooters and keep them moving. But once half those mooks are down and out having them run away or give up is not an unrealistic option for them to do. I mean, if the party takes down half the mooks in one round then you better bet those mooks probably feel out classed and should think about running.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 22:34:17 GMT -8
Math + Simulations. The math component of it is fairly easy, if somewhat involved. You can calculate out how often they hit and how much their average damage is. Multiply them together and you get damage/round. Let's walk through that part. Your PC has a D8 Fighting. That means he rolls a D8 and a D6 wild die to make a normal attack. We'll make a matrix out of that info to show us every possible result (nearly, dice can keep acing, but that probability goes down and down with each roll). We have a total number of possible results = 6 x 8 = 48. Our example mook will have a fighting of D6, this gives them a parry = 2 + (6/2) = 5. So the number our hero needs to hit is a 5. We can then look at our matrix and find what portion of those results can come up 5+. 1, 8 | 2, 8 | 3, 8 | 4, 8 | 5, 8 | 6, 8 | 1, 7 | 2, 7 | 3, 7 | 4, 7 | 5, 7 | 6, 7 | 1, 6 | 2, 6 | 3, 6 | 4, 6 | 5, 6 | 6, 6 | 1, 5 | 2, 5 | 3, 5 | 4, 5 | 5, 5 | 6, 5 | 1, 4 | 2, 4 | 3, 4 | 4, 4 | 5, 4 | 6, 4 | 1, 3 | 2, 3 | 3, 3 | 4, 3 | 5, 3 | 6, 3 | 1, 2 | 2, 2 | 3, 2 | 4, 2 | 5, 2 | 6, 2 | 1, 1 | 2, 1 | 3, 1 | 4, 1 | 5, 1 | 6, 1 |
In blue we have our successes, while in green we have our raises. Aces are shown in bold. Its important to note that the aces in blue could become raises, but in order to show that we will need a second chart, which we'll get to in a moment. 16 results of 48 will fail, meaning a full 2/3 of all results will be a success while 1/3 will fail. This isn't enough information though, we need to parse out the results up to at least one raise for both dice. That's 5 (a success against our planned mook) + 4 = 9. Let's get digging. 7, 16 | 8, 16 | 9, 16 | 10, 16 | 11, 16 | 12, 16 | 7, 15 | 8, 15 | 9, 15 | 10, 15 | 11, 15 | 12, 15 | 7, 14 | 8, 14 | 9, 14 | 10, 14 | 11, 14 | 12, 14 | 7, 13 | 8, 13 | 9, 13 | 10, 13 | 11, 13 | 12, 13 | 7, 12 | 8, 12 | 9, 12 | 10, 12 | 11, 12 | 12, 12 | 7, 11 | 8, 11 | 9, 11 | 10, 11 | 11, 11 | 12, 11 | 7, 10 | 8, 10 | 9, 10 | 10, 10 | 11, 10 | 12, 10 | 7, 9 | 8, 9 | 9, 9 | 10, 9 | 11, 9 | 12, 9 |
Okay, this time we can see that the only way not to raise is to ace our D6 wild die, then roll a 2 or less. So 1/3 of wild die aces will not become raises. Going back to our first chart we can see a total of 13 ways to ace. Of those combinations, 7 of them only have an ace on the D6 while 6 combinations have an aced D8 (which will become a raise as soon as they reroll, 100% of the time). Instead of counting those ace D6's without a D8 ace as a success, we have to break it up into 1/3 success, 2/3 ace (which is what the second chart shows). Math shows us that: 1/3 of 7/48 = 7/144 = .04861 = ~4.9% Success2/3 of 7/48 = 7/72 = .09722 = ~9.7% RaiseNow we just break down the rest of the results. First, the remaining aces. There are 6 of them. Once we derive their percentage we can add that to our previous amount to get the total chance of an ace. 6/48 = 1/8 = .125 = 12.5% 12.5% + 9.7% = 22.2% Total Raise ChanceNow we do the same for successes. We have 19 successes unaccounted for which we'll add to our percentage of D6 aces that don't raise. 19/48 = .39583 = ~39.6% 39.6% + 4.9% = 44.5% Total Success Chance
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2017 23:50:26 GMT -8
Now that we know how often they will hit, and what percentage of that time they will hit with a raise (which adds +1d6 to damage), we can look at damage. In order to determine how much damage we do, we need to know the toughness of our mooks (which includes armor). Again, we'll base this off a D6 Vigor and we'll assume leather armor (who can afford to armor mooks beyond the basics?). 2 + (6/2) + 1 = 6 Toughness. In order to inflict shaken on our mooks, we'll need to do 6 damage. To kill them, we will need to do 10 damage (one raise). On 2D8 there are 64 possible combinations. All of them will produce a number between 2 & 16. Its our job to determine how many possible combinations can produce a 6 and how many can produce a 10. We'll make a chart to do that. 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 |
Easiest to look at is our failures. 10 of 64 will fail to injure. 24 of 64 will always succeed but not raise. 2 of 64 will succeed, but may raise. 28 of 64 will always raise. On our 2 that may raise, we look at what they would need to roll on their ace to determine how likely that is. Since they are already at a 9, they only need 1 more to raise. As 1 is the minimum on all the dice, this moves them over into the always raise catagory. Thus our final distribution is as follows: 10/64 = .15625 = 15.6% Fail to Injure24/64 = .375 = 37.5% Succeed & Shake30/64 = .46875 = 46.9% Raise and Incapacitate
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 0:37:54 GMT -8
This time we are going to work on 2D8 + 1d6. If we use the matrix from my last post as tiers or levels in a tower it should be easy enough to accomplish. Starting with the first and continuing on through the last tier, each number will rise by 1. So a 2 on the first floor becomes a 3. On the second floor it will be a 4. The entire final/top floor will ace on the D6, we'll get to that one last. Another way to think about this is that each section on the chart is a wave crashing in over the top of the other areas. Hence on the first level our raises will cover all the 9's and our successes will now cover all the 5's. Success will actually lose ground, as raise swallows it, so even though its area is expanding on one edge, its going to shrink.
First Tier: 10 - 4 (losing 5's) = 6/384 Failure to injure 24 + 4 (gaining 5's) - 8 (losing 9's) = 20/384 Succeed and Shake 30 + 8 (gaining 9's) = 38/384 Raise and Incapacitate
Second Tier: 6 - 3 (Losing 4's) = 3/384 Failure to injure 20 + 3 (Gaining 4's) - 7 (Losing 8's) = 16/384 Succeed and Shake 38 + 7 (Gaining 8's) = 45/384 Raise and Incapacitate
Third Tier: 3 - 2 (Losing 3's) = 1/384 Failure to injure 16 + 2 (Gaining 3's) - 6 (Losing 7's) = 12/384 Succeed and Shake 45 + 6 (Gaining 7's) = 51/384 Raise and Incapacitate
Fourth Tier: 1 - 1 (Losing 2's) = 0/384 Failure to injure 12 + 1 (Gaining 2's) - 5 (Losing 6's) = 8/384 Succeed and Shake 51 + 5 (Gaining 6's) = 56/384 Raise and Incapacitate
Fifth Tier: (No more Failures to Injure Left to track) 8 - 4 (Losing 5's) = 4/384 Succeed and Shake 56 + 4 (Gaining 5's) = 60/384 Raise and Incapacitate
Sixth Tier: (All D6's Ace, meaning all rolls go up by +2 minimum instead of +1 this time. Some may go up higher.) If we look back at our base chart our lowest number was a 2. We know that ever number will get +7 or higher than on our original chart. Thus we only have 1 combination that doesn't automatically become a raise (since 2 + 7 = 9, 1 short of our raise goal of 10). The only way that one combination doesn't become a raise is if the Aced D6 rolls a 1. Thus: 1/64 x 1/6 = 1/384 Succeed and Shake 1/64 x 5/6 = 5/384 Raise and Incapacitate 58 = 58/384 Raise and Incapacitate
Accumulated Tiers: 10/384 = .02604 = 2.6% Failure to injure 61/384 = .15885 = 15.9% Succeed and Shake 313/384 = .81510 = 81.5% Raise and Incapacitate
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 3:29:01 GMT -8
So now we've determined our chance to succeed or raise as well as what damage is likely to result from those hits. Now we can put them together to determine how we do on an average round.
We'll start with Simple success on the hit roll and multiply it by the damage percentages to get our probability of inflicting each of those states: 44.5% x 15.6% = 6.9% Failure to Injure 44.5% x 37.5% = 16.7% Succeed and Shake 44.5% x 46.9% = 20.9% Raise and Incapacitate
Next we'll cover raises and multiply by the raise damage to get our probabilities: 22.2% x 02.6% = 0.6% Failure to Injure 22.2% x 15.9% = 3.5% Succeed and Shake 22.2% x 81.5% = 18.1% Raise and Incapacitate
Finally we'll derive our finished chances by adding up each outcome: 33.3% (Chance to miss) + 6.9% + 0.6% = 40.5% Failure to Hit or Injure 16.7% + 3.5% = 20.2% Succeed and Shake 20.9% + 18.1% = 39% Raise and Incapacitate
Conclusions to be reached: You have roughly an even chance of missing or 1-shoting an extra (each of those has roughly a 2/5's chance of occuring). You have a 1/5 chance of only shaking an extra. Right now your chances of hitting & dealing enough damage to matter are only just above a coin flip, but 2/3 of those hit will be lethal to an extra. Anything you can do to up the survivabiliy chances of your extras is advised. If you are outnumbering the players, have any extra that is engaged 1v1 take defensive actions in order to tie up the PC while the others gang up on the remaining PC's.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 4:22:20 GMT -8
To clear shaken you must make a Spirit trait roll vs a standard difficulty of 4. Given a D6 and the "up, down, or off" nature of extras, there aren't many penalties that will apply to them. Thus their looking at a 50/50 shot of clearing their shaken condition and acting that turn.
Initiative in SW is not linked to any character trait. The only major way of changing your chance to go first (before an extra can make a spirit roll and get loose) is with edges. Many of these edges are gated behind character rank and thus not available to starting characters, but not all (see Quick pg 34). This means you are at the mercy of the deck. If possible, try to fight 2v1 (or greater, 4v1 is always better).
PC's can fight 1v1 effectively, but will rely on Bennies to ensure success. If they can hit though, their chance of taking an extra out is better than average. As such, extras should be defensive if thus engaged alone. As people, they want to live, so play them as such.
------------------ For GM's:
Don't be afraid to outnumber the players with extras. If your players play smart they have a good chance of taking these guys out at a rate of 1 for every 1-2 rounds. As someone seeking to win the engagement, you best bet is to bloody their noses quickly. Unlike your extras, the PC's will accumulate wound penalties which will make everything they do harder. The sooner you get these stacking up the more they have to fear a route (or capture).
Remember that your extras are disposable. While they may want to live (being NPC's with motivations), they don't hold any significance in the long run. If a players dice explode they take out an extra. Who cares? If your dice explode, you may take out a PC. The dice are unpredictable, be aware that given enough rolls you will get lucky. Since you have more enemies than there are players you will get more rolls. Thus you are the most likely person to have dice explode in a meaningful fashion. So don't sweat your NPC's getting taken out and the players riding high on their horse. Their number is coming, probably sooner than they think.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jun 8, 2017 6:56:53 GMT -8
Math + Simulations. The math component of it is fairly easy, if somewhat involved. You can calculate out how often they hit and how much their average damage is. Multiply them together and you get damage/round. Let's walk through that part. Fairly easy he says...SOMEWHAT involved he says...You can do all this at work ?!? Holy shit. I got into the wrong career 😄. Does anybody really try this hard to make encounters balanced ?? I got mental sweats after post one! I would love to see how a game built with this level of analysis feels to play...
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Post by savagedaddy on Jun 8, 2017 11:49:23 GMT -8
Trying to create balanced combats in Savage Worlds is an exercise in futility and insanity. Dice explode, players have Bennies to re-roll and Soak wounds, and the initiative order is 100% random.
Instead of trying to create 'challenging' or 'balanced' combat, focus on interesting and dramatic combats. What do I mean? Fill the battleground with a ton of extras. I"m a fan of 4 or more extras per Wild Card player character, because with gang up each extra adds +3 to attack rolls. Here are my top five tips for cinematic encounters:
1. Use all of the rules (cover modifiers, drawing weapons is an action, unstable platform, rough terrain, etc.) 2. Add hazards. Fire is a favorite and the smoke adds -2 covers to fuck with the ranged players. 3. Don't forget to Push, Grapple, and Wild Attack! 4. A third of your extras should be archers or ranged magic users. 5. Always take multiple actions on a Joker (Push prone for -2 parry, then stomp).
Hope that helps.
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Post by kurtpotts on Jun 8, 2017 12:22:50 GMT -8
I'm with savagedaddy. The dice and initiative are unpredictable. You can accomplish a lot of "Balance" with tactics. Gang up, Wild Attack, Use cover. Also don't be afraid to reskin powers as mundane attacks to add a little flavor. If an enemy is a Wildcard give them the same edge tree your players would take. Two-fisted, ambidextrous, Imp Frenzy means three melee attacks with no penalty.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 15:07:17 GMT -8
Math + Simulations. The math component of it is fairly easy, if somewhat involved. You can calculate out how often they hit and how much their average damage is. Multiply them together and you get damage/round. Let's walk through that part. Fairly easy he says...SOMEWHAT involved he says...You can do all this at work ?!? Holy shit. I got into the wrong career 😄. Does anybody really try this hard to make encounters balanced ?? I got mental sweats after post one! I would love to see how a game built with this level of analysis feels to play... The important thing to remember is that these number crunching sessions exist to build a basis for thought. It's not something I intend to do each time I sit down to play (though it gets easier and easier the more of it you have done, since you can reuse it). The basics of it are simple, it's just the wild die and exploding dice that complicate matters. Luckily for doing the math against extras you never need to care about more than a single raise (assuming you aren't planning to use that math as a basis for a soak roll analysis, which I'm not). More than one raise does nothing on the to hit roll (+1d6 is the max extra damage), and one raise takes out an extra, making any further damage meaningless (unless you want to account for soaking). The final piece of the puzzle is that the games uses multiple die types instead of a fixed set of dice (ala hero system or GURPS), so instead of having one chart we need a bunch.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 15:15:09 GMT -8
I"m a fan of 4 or more extras per Wild Card player character, because with gang up each extra adds +3 to attack rolls. Do you mean # of players x 4? Hence 16 extras for 4 PC's? Or are you saying four extras per wild card on the enemy side of the equation?
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Post by savagedaddy on Jun 8, 2017 20:38:39 GMT -8
Yes, I mean 4 extras per Wild Card PC. Thus a party of 5 player characters should encounter 20 Extras. When each attack as a group of 4 against one Wild Card, they each get +3 Gang Up bonus.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2017 22:12:03 GMT -8
Yes, I mean 4 extras per Wild Card PC. Thus a party of 5 player characters should encounter 20 Extras. When each attack as a group of 4 against one Wild Card, they each get +3 Gang Up bonus. Since SavageDaddy is the voice of experiance on all things Savage Worlds, I'm going to give his suggestion a go in an example combat. I'll be making up a seperate thread and linking to it. Once its complete I will post the after battle analysis here.
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