sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 18, 2017 18:37:11 GMT -8
The playtest materials come with two "booklets" - the rules, and a playtest scenario.
The rules booklet opens with a design goals statement. "Speed up play" is one goal; always laudable. Make the rules easier to teach and learn; the basic mechanic of "roll attribute+skill" is pretty straightforward, though the changing target numbers combined with variable numbers of successes was a bitch. The biggest problem lay in where the game deviated from that format (and that sort of thing happens in each of the gamelines; in Mage, you roll stat+skill for almost everything, except magic. WTF?). "Create options for players to customize the rules" is also laudable.
They're keeping the attribute+skill format for the basic mechanic, and it's still d10s. The target number, now, is always 6; difficulty is now measured in #successes required. Standard difficulty is 2 successes. Hard is 6. Opposed rolls are mentioned, instead of a difficulty, it's a roll-off; whoever gets higher number of successes wins. Repeating a failed roll ups the difficulty by one. Willpower can be spent on re-rolls; there's no mention here of spending a willpower for auto-success.
Success at a cost: if you fail by one success, you can "succeed at a cost." Not something alien to those who listen to the cast. The ST can suggest the cost, the player can opt to reject that cost and just fail. ST can also rule that the situation is just a failure.
Take Half: For NPCs, it suggests you just assume all rolls by NPCs are half successes and half failures (like, if it's a mook with 4 dice pool for fighting, just assume two were successes rather than take time to roll).
They've pulled out botches, 10-again rolls, and 1s cancelling 10s and other successes. They've switched up rolls against variable pools - like Willpower - to be against the *current* value rather than the normal, maximum value. I think this is bad, because it's going to cause players to be reticent to spend willpower. Dice penalties never drop a pool below one die.
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 18, 2017 18:48:15 GMT -8
Attributes have been pared down to three: "Physical", "Social", and "Mental". IIRC, this is how the LARP is set up. So, no more really-stong-but-clumsy thugs, I guess. You specify a specialty in each of these stats which corresponds to the old Attribute names. So you might have "Physical (Stamina) •••" and "Social (Manipulation) ••••" and "Mental (Wits) •••" for example. These specialties grant an extra die when they apply.
The design notes say they cut down the number of attributes from nine to three because having only three lets players customize and personalize their characters more. If that's the goal, it seems to me that this move is in the opposite direction...
Skills work pretty much the same as they used to. They've introduced two new skills, Physique (for feats of strength, long jumps, etc) which looks like it's Athletics with a different name, and Technology (using, modifying, damaging common technical devices like smartphones, tablets, etc) which IMHO is the old Computers skill.
Backgrounds and merits are touched on quickly, and look like they function in the same way they used to... here it says there's no systems for backgrounds and merits yet. So I dunno?
Willpower is cut down to a five point maximum pool, from ten. I can see why this was done - to bring it in line with Attributes and Skills in terms of dice pool. But with only five at most, and rolls against Willpower being the current value instead of the max value, this is gonna be like health potions in Skyrim - you never use 'em because you need to save them "just in case".
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 18, 2017 18:57:38 GMT -8
Nature and Demeanor are gone, replaced with Virtue and Vice (familiar to New World of Darkness Vampire players). Giving in to a Vice ups your willpower one point per scene. Following a Virtue (as personal risk) refreshes your whole Willpower pool (and it doesn't say "once per scene" here; IIRC, it's once per session in nWOD).
Sample virtues: Just, Loyal, Honest. Sample vices: Arrogant, Greedy, Hasty.
Initiative is Mental(Wits)+highest combat skill (brawl, melee, firearms). Attacks with weapons are opposed rolls, which should speed things up, though if the defender beats you, she hits you. (Firearms, defender just avoids being hit... don't bring a knife to a gunfight.) If Dodge skill is used, the defender doesn't hit, just avoids.
Firearms use Mental+Firearms, opposed by Mental+Dodge. I have mixed feelings about this. Melee and unarmed are Physical+skill.
Against multiple attackers, you start to lose dice on your defense roll equal to the number of attackers. So you roll straight up against the first guy, the second guy you roll at a -2, the next you roll against at -3, etc.
Damage is the number of successes you beat their roll by, plus the weapon's damage. Assault rifles are +5, it says here. I wonder how much sniper rifles are?
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 18, 2017 19:04:18 GMT -8
You have Physical+5 health levels (this reminds me of nWOD Vamp, too). There's only two damage types now, Superficial and Aggravated. Like back in first ed, if I recall; there wasn't Lethal damage then, only Bashing and Aggravated. Superficial is halved before applied to your health track.
Armor changes Aggravated to Superficial on a point for point basis.
Mortals heal all Superficial damage at the end of a scene, and need care for Agg. Vamps need to "Rouse the Blood" to heal anything; each Rouse heals a Superficial, 5 Rouses and a daysleep heals an Agg. So, like spending blood. This is the first time Rouse the Blood is directly mentioned, I think.
Fill up a Mortal on Agg, they die in Physical minutes. Fill a Vampire they go to torpor. You have to behead them to kill 'em.
Soak rolls are gone in the name of speed. Fortitude, it mentions, grants damage reduction.
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 18, 2017 19:21:04 GMT -8
The Humanity system isn't in yet.
HUNGER is the new system. Every Vamp has a Hunger score from 0 to 5. 0, you just drank someone dry; 5 you're starving. You generally sit at 1 Hunger.
Every time you do something that needs Blood (Disciplines, pumping stats, healing, rising every evening, simulating normal body functions) you Rouse the Blood. You need to track how often you Rouse the Blood in a scene, and in this playtest you don't have a limit on how often you can Rouse per turn.
You don't have a Gas Tank of Vitae anymore. It's abstracted by Hunger dice.
You can feed to reduce the Hunger Dice in your pool. A bunch of rats? Reduce by one. A human, but not killed? Three. Drink a human dry? Drop by five.
How do you use your Hunger pool? Hunger dice swap out your usual dice pool. If you have Hunger 3, and you're trying to hack a computer (say, Mental 3 plus Tech 3, for 6 pool) you roll three normal dice and three Hunger dice (use a different color to keep track). If you score a 1 on any of your Hunger dice, you suffer a Hunger related compulsion.
It mentions a chart for these compulsions but doesn't show it right away.
You can fight off a compulsion by spending a Composure, which are just like Willpower but aren't Willpower.
When to check for increasing your Hunger pool? At the end of a scene when you Rouse the Blood, you roll a d10 for each Rouse. Every failure (so, every 1-5 result) adds one die to your Hunger pool. You also check immediately if you spend five or more Rouses, and when you start feeding (buh?).
If this would take you over five Hunger you check for Frenzy (with a -1 die penalty for every step above 5). You check Frenzy by rolling your current Composure; one success is all you need. (Of course, at this point you're rolling all Hunger dice, do even if you don't Frenzy, it could be bad for you.)
There's no Generation system in this playtest.
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 18, 2017 19:28:00 GMT -8
Hunger compulsions. You either roll on the chart or the ST picks one. There's "general" compulsions and there's "clan" related ones. They range from "Blood Whispers" where you just stand there for a turn doing nothing, to a claustrophobia effect where you become disabled for a turn, "Life Nostalgia" where you can zone out for a turn... (see a pattern?)
One of the Brujah ones is a little insensitive. "Triggered. You are offended by something in this scene and react to it with extrovert anger." I guess they're trying to say something cute about Social Justice Warriors... but if you know anyone with PTSD, this is... rude, I guess? It's inappropriate. It's also just, functionally, a duplicate of "Lash Out" on the general effects chart.
And the Toreador have a result that is "have sex with a mortal, whether it's consensual or not".
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 18, 2017 19:31:08 GMT -8
Gonna hit the sack shortly. A bunch of the disciplines are as you expect. Celerity is still "I win", with extra successes to Initiative and combat rolls, and extra attacks at •••.
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Post by sovereigncitizenkane on Jun 18, 2017 19:50:39 GMT -8
Well they're certainly trying to offend people, it seems.
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Post by Wakefield on Jun 18, 2017 21:10:15 GMT -8
Thank you for the comprehensive report, good sir sbloyd . I like the succeed at a cost rule, and standardizing the value for successes on d10s streamlines what was for me a sometimes frustrating and confusing system. Most of the rest of it, however, I find annoying (e.g. the extreme fortitude suggested by "only beheadings can kill a vampire"), oversimplified (e.g. condensing Attributes to three categories, removing the chaos and excitement of 10-agains and the interesting complications of botches) or just plain nonsensical (potentially being affected by a Clan Flaw when hacking a computer?). I don't mind the Hunger dice adding penalties, but the consequences for failure should make sense based on the task at hand and environmental stimuli. Speaking of Clan Flaws, the Brujah and Toreador hunger compulsions that you've highlighted are awful. They make for caricatures at best ("every Brujah is a SJW," "every Toreador is a nymphomaniac") and deeply upsetting thefts of player agency at worst ("Your Brujah spots and eviscerates a white trick-or-treater wearing a Native American headdress," "Your Toreador needs to screw someone but no one here's willing, so he rapes the nearest human"). Outlandish examples, yes, but ones that the rules would appear to suggest. I expect this would especially turn off rookie STs and players who believe they have to play the game by the book and don't know enough to discuss sensitive content and to decide common lines and veils before playing.
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Post by The Northman on Jun 18, 2017 23:08:28 GMT -8
I realize it's a common usage, but there are more varied examples of how or why a Brujah could be 'triggered' into frenzy by taking offense at some slight or disrespect than just social issues. That being said, Brujah-as-activist is an old standard.
In regard to role playing that touches on consent issues, it's not as if this is the first time Vampire has tread this path. Mentally drugging people through blood or disciplines into all manner of awful actions is a staple of the game. Creating a ghoul is basically human trafficking through forced addiction. Yes, groups can choose whether to let those things happen on camera (in my experience most won't), but this isn't new territory for the characters and npc's in the setting.
It's not for everyone, but the initial cornerstone of the game was the idea that no matter how hard a vampire tried, their condition was going to result in more and more horrific actions. It's right in the subtitle: Personal Horror. Largely due to a very intentional loss of control or agency where blood is concerned. It's a feature, not a bug.
And people have also played Vampire in a way that shies away from that, too. That's perfectly fine, in which case people can discount those especially horrific aspects.
But as written (historically), it's icky, and offensive, and crosses lines as it tries to push boundaries. And that's kinda the point, but every group needs to decide if and how that aspect of the game will get handled. I mean...what did you think you were doing every time your character used Dominate to feed? Or, more specific to this case, cranked Presence to get a mortal back to your character's room, or into the alley?
Ew.
Feeding is the 'how the sausage is made' of V:tM. I'm not saying it isn't all potentially very problematic for some groups/players, just that it's in no way a development of this edition. Mechanically, I like nearly all of what I see:
I think the 10's-again rule has been gone for a while, replaced by two successes per 10 when you're specialized.
I like the idea of the hunger dice, and I'm excited to see how it adapts into rage and paradox in the other settings. Success at a cost is equally cool in how it enables narrative.
I think what the creators mean by adding customization by reducing the base stats comes from mixing and matching the specialties. Your 'clumsy strongman' might have physical down his list of priorities, but specialize in strength to still be effective in that particular area. It's just a reversal in thinking of how to build a character in some ways.
The rest will have to wait to see how it works and develops.
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 19, 2017 4:33:27 GMT -8
Yeah. The lack of 10-again is specifically mentioned in the design notes, though. It makes me wonder if the designers are up to speed on V20.
The Hunger mechanic I can see adapting to Paradox quite well.
But in this case, it's baked-in to Toreador now.
I did miss a thing on Compulsions - it encourages STs to take control of characters and dictate their actions if they think the player isn't doing it right. That's.. bad precedent to set, there.
And, yeah, the omnipresence of Hunger dice means you could be doing *anything* requiring a dice roll - picking a lock, for example - and suddenly lose the ability to speak in anything but animal grunts (one of the Gangrel results). Don't get me wrong, I like the idea, I just hope the playtest uncovers the fact that making them omnipresent can have some very weird results.
We'll have to see, since there's no character generation rules here. I'll be taking a look at the playtest adventure next (which includes pregens). Since they dropped Appearance as a stat, I wonder how they're going to handle Nosferatu? Will they take a page from the nWOD version?
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Post by Wakefield on Jun 19, 2017 12:40:20 GMT -8
The Northman , you're absolutely right that it's been squicky as-written historically, for all the reasons you've mentioned. The limits of humanity and monstrosity and the line between them has always been one of the draws of Vampire for me. Two things, though: Firstly, most if not all the squicky examples you mention are hunger-motivated. In another thread, some folks discussed Prey Exclusions and how some particularly loathsome Kindred with Exclusions of "orphans" or "rape victims" might arrange for mortals to suddenly satisfy those exclusions. *shudder*. But this brings me to the second thing: Even in that Prey Exclusion example and in your examples of a PC Dominating or Awing or Ghouling people, the player makes these choices, no matter how ethically nauseous he or she might personally find the decision, and has some breathing room to reconcile the unsettling action with his or her sense of the character. What I take issue with are game mechanics that compel PCs to act in ways that violate a player's sense of the character. Personally, I might find a Hunger-compelled rape such a defining event for my character that I might feel that it was his main defining characteristic, no matter how I'd defined him before or what plans I'd had for his development. If that made him suddenly feel unplayable, I'd be mightily pissed. So I would only play a Toreador on the condition that the ST struck that compulsion from the list. That also goes for Brujahs with a defining cause who find themselves triggered by something wholly unrelated to that cause. Idk, it just seems like bad ST practice. Let your players play the characters they designed. </my 2 cents>
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Jun 19, 2017 12:53:53 GMT -8
Well, I like the sound of what I'm reading so far. This might finally be a version of Vampire I can get behind. (Which I predicted when Ken Hite was announced.)
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Post by Wakefield on Jun 19, 2017 13:29:19 GMT -8
Well, I like the sound of what I'm reading so far. This might finally be a version of Vampire I can get behind. (Which I predicted when Ken Hite was announced.) Just curious, what were your reservations about the earlier system vs. the changes you like in this one?
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fredrix
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Posts: 2,142
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Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jun 20, 2017 9:51:39 GMT -8
Well, I like the sound of what I'm reading so far. This might finally be a version of Vampire I can get behind. (Which I predicted when Ken Hite was announced.) Just curious, what were your reservations about the earlier system vs. the changes you like in this one? Well, mechanically, the single variable on the dice pool is a very welcome change. I'm also liking the hunger mechanic and triggers. What follows is a personal opinion, and tainted by the people I used to have to try and play Vampire with, but none of the previous editions seemed able to portray Vampires as monsters. The gothic glamour of the vampire always took precedence over the feeding and other monstrous behaviours. Great Deats ip was given in play about wearing black leather trench coats and being cool, and then and the end of a scene a player would say, "oh yeah, and I top up on a hobo". From what I read here, this version seems to front end the hunger and the monstrousness. Which is good.
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