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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 24, 2017 19:43:07 GMT -8
I totally agree that putting the hunger and monstrosity of vampires up front is great, but I'm really not liking the overall tone of this edition. It seems like they're really desperate to be "edgy" by using the cheapest tricks in the book. "Oh look, the Bruja got 'Triggered' again." "Oh and here comes a rapey Toreador."
Also, bringing Attributes from 9 to 3 to ADD customizability?! What!?!?! With 9 Attributes, each of which can also have a Specialty, THAT feels a lot more customizable to me.
Also, any time an RPG book expressly tells GMs to take control of PCs away from the players is a very big red flag for me.
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Post by The Northman on Jun 25, 2017 11:10:10 GMT -8
I would go into how all vampires, Golconda-seekers and rat-feeders notwithstanding, have always been kinda rapey, but that line of logic (however true) might ruin the game for me if I think about it too much.
Didn't you always lose control of your character in frenzy? Since losing control of my character is the worst/scariest thing I can have happen in a game, I think it sort of adds to the fear factor. There's still a level of ST/Player trust necessary in this game more than lots of others, so I'm not terribly concerned that it's going to be an issue with anyone I play with. It makes the beast seem much more insidious, alien, and Other, capable of dark whispers and even grabbing the reigns is you aren't careful.
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sbloyd
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Post by sbloyd on Jun 25, 2017 12:23:42 GMT -8
Well, yes. Feeding is a metaphor for sex (and rape) and drugs. Which is why the Ventrue child-feeder gets into icky land for me, for example.
Frenzy, yes, you could lose character control. But "hunger compulsions" aren't frenzy (though frenzy is one of the possible results) and look like they're gonna come up a *lot* more often than your "garden variety" frenzy.
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 25, 2017 16:24:47 GMT -8
Yeah, I like the idea of Hunger Dice and treating vampires' craving/need for blood that way because it really makes it a part of the character's nightly existence and pretty much unavoidable, unless you kill someone, which I find suitably dark. BUT having those dice affect ALL rolls... that's just going too far. I can see ways to justify it in many situations: You failed to hack the computer, but you rolled 1s on your Hunger Dice so the frustration of your failure sends you into Frenzy. Okay, that can work. But how many times will that need to happen before it gets really tedious and even ridiculous. This reminds me of some people's frustration with narrative dice, like FFG's Star Wars games, that constantly force the GM to come up with weird, random side-effects for all kinds of roll. This can be fun for a while, but eventually it can feel strained and artificial, then it stops being flavorful and just becomes tedious.
Also, rape, child abuse, gratuitous offensive shit... I'm not a teen anymore, "edgy" stuff isn't that funny to me anymore. Now burps and farts on the other hand, those will never not be funny, but that's a whole other story.
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 25, 2017 19:32:54 GMT -8
Also, rape, child abuse, gratuitous offensive shit... I'm not a teen anymore, "edgy" stuff isn't that funny to me anymore. O.o All things considered, I seriously doubt that Funny is what they're going for....
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Post by The Northman on Jun 25, 2017 19:47:58 GMT -8
Yeah, I'd be the first one to call them on bullshit if this turns out to be some sort of fuel for gratuitous kicks. It seems like at this juncture they're just trying to put vampires as creatures of constant hunger at the forefront, and not letting the fact that hunger is what let's the beast drag you down ever fade into the background.
It's a starting point that really interests me.
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Post by RudeAlert on Jun 25, 2017 19:55:47 GMT -8
Yeah, I'd be the first one to call them on bullshit if this turns out to be some sort of fuel for gratuitous kicks. It seems like at this juncture they're just trying to put vampires as creatures of constant hunger at the forefront, and not letting the fact that hunger is what let's the beast drag you down ever fade into the background. It's a starting point that really interests me. As a starting point I agree that this is interesting and very thematically appropriate. Probably more so than any previous version of Vampire actually. It's some of the other stuff they seem to want around it that feel gratuitous and "shocking" for the sake of being "shocking." Frankly the current tone strikes me as juvenile, but it's still early so we'll see how things progress. But if having one of the PCs in the playtest be a child molester is a sign of the direction they want to take with this game, that's not a good start.
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Jun 26, 2017 12:42:15 GMT -8
Can we be clear here, are we calling the character Amelina Bentheim the child molester?
I mean don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning her tastes, but this is a character that really works for me. Yes she's despicable, she's a monster. I don't want to be her, but I'd relish the chance of playing the person who doesn't want to be her. Because that for me is what playing Vampire is all about, shouldn't we all be playing people that don't want to be monsters? Isn't that the point?
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Post by vyrrk on Jun 26, 2017 13:03:58 GMT -8
But if having one of the PCs in the playtest be a child molester is a sign of the direction they want to take with this game, that's not a good start. This is exactly how I feel. I have never played any WoD games and I was really excited for a new edition because I find that is normally the best time to get into a game... but wow. After hearing all this... I think I'm out. That being said... I think this is kinda why they are doing it... www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0NgUhEs1R4
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Jun 26, 2017 13:09:20 GMT -8
Just want to point out, she drinks the blood of children and young teenagers, just like the "Blooper Lady" Lucy Westonra did after bring "embraced" by the Count in the novel Dracula. She fucks young vampires
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Jun 26, 2017 13:22:42 GMT -8
And frankly I'm reading a weird moral relativism into this objection. "Yeah sure, it's OK for my vampire character to drink the blood of/kill this innocent eighteen year old, because she's old enough. Hell, walking home alone on the streets, she's practically asking for it! But how dare you suggest that my monstrous bloodsucker would drink from a child! That's sick!"
That said given this is a pre-alpha, I'm sure when the players express their distaste, they"ll change it. I remember during the Feng Shui 2 KS, people objected to the "Scrappy Kid" having some sort of "Charm" schtick that sounded a bit Lolita - ish', and they changed that.
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 26, 2017 13:47:01 GMT -8
And frankly I'm reading a weird moral relativism into this objection. "Yeah sure, it's OK for my vampire character to drink the blood of/kill this innocent eighteen year old, because she's old enough. Hell, walking home alone on the streets, she's practically asking for it! But how dare you suggest that my monstrous bloodsucker would drink from a child! That's sick!" I have not been able to read it yet, but if it's just a feeding preference....
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fredrix
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Post by fredrix on Jun 26, 2017 14:01:58 GMT -8
Well there's two bits in the description. The second is the feeding restriction:
But the more contentious bit is in the first papargraph of the description:
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Post by The Northman on Jun 26, 2017 14:05:50 GMT -8
The blurb for one of the other playtest characters, her child-embraced offspring, notes that he knows that she wants to be his lover. He's around 30, but looks 5. In combination with her feeding restriction of children and preteens, it's certainly troublesome psychologically.
It's not a character I'd be comfortable playing, but I can't say it's uninteresting or presented as pure shock.
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 26, 2017 15:30:42 GMT -8
So it's borrowing from Rice.
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