sdJasper
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 30
Preferred Game Systems: GURPS, Fudge, PDQ
Currently Running: GURPS Traveller Interstellar Wars
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Post by sdJasper on Jun 21, 2017 4:25:44 GMT -8
I have a question for you: What is a random encounter from the perspective of the players? I'll tell you my answer: there is no such thing. How you choose to generate encounters does not matter. Dying like a bitch at random does not refer to a type of encounter, but how the system functions. "Roll to climb the stairs. You fail, fall down the stairs, and now you are dead." If you think I'm writing a backstory after that kind of event, you got another thing coming. Good games and game masters know when death or serious injury should be on the line, and even then they use systems that minimize the chance of an outlying result occurring. Most systems I've seen use a dice pool, a bell curve distribution, or some other method of controlling outcomes (wild dice, fate points, spending pool points, etc). These mechanics curb ridiculous outcomes. A mugging might be a 'random' encounter, but it's still an important event in the game to the audience (the players). No one told them that you decided to roll on a chart. Even if you did tell them, that is usually based on something. This neighborhood is dangerous, so there is a chance you get mugged when walking through it. The fact that you rolled to see if it happened or not doesn't really make it random. Even the basic D&D 'wandering monster' encounters aren't really random. They happen as a response to the character's remaining in a dangerous area. Would we call a session random if the GM used charts to come up with the premise for it? No. Then why do we keep insisting that encounters are random? They're not. Unplanned? Not even. That chart came from somewhere. 'Random' combats carry as much weight as any other combat. There is danger inherent in it because of the fighting. If that wasn't the case then it wouldn't even be an encounter, it would be a narration speed bump. It sounds like to me you define "dying like a bitch" to mean dying from a situation that (IMO) shouldn't have required a die roll. That's a whole other topic. I've never asked for a die roll to climb stairs in any game I've run. I stick to the idea that dice should only come out when there is a plausible risk of injury to health, wealth, reputation, etc. Or to put it another way, if there is only one acceptable outcome for a situation, then there shouldn't be a die roll. And I take issue with folks that feel that if the only acceptable situation for combat is PC victory, then why are you bothering to roll combat? Why have a group of fodder show up for the PCs to chop up if there is no risk? Edit: PS, I tend to play games that use normalized or bell-curve mechanics, and prefer such mechanics to prevent crazy results from occurring too often. I'd only play exploding dice or flat curve games when I am playing a campaign where I can live with huge swings in results.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 5:41:15 GMT -8
sdJasper Not only when dice shouldn't have been rolled, that's just the most obvious form of it. While it is possible to fall and whack you head at any time, that isn't really a satisfying resolution in a game. That's because stakes were never established. If a guy mugs you at knife point we know being stabbed (possibly fatally) is on the line. I have no problem with someone falling down the stairs to their death if they were pushed, for example. It's when we see a situation crossover from trivial to lethal that there is a problem. I can give an example from my own time playing. The game is warhammer fantasy roleplay, 2nd ed. Our group of Bretonian knights had been captured by skaven (rat people) and locked in jail. When one of the knights wouldn't stop making noise they came by to whip him into submission (with a literal whip). The player said he was going to keep screaming til they did damage to him, prompting the GM to pick up dice (thus his mistake). A punch of explosions later, a weapon that normally does almost no damage kills a healthy knight in a single blow. Is it possible to die from a single whip strike? Maybe, but it certainly wasn't appropriate. It wasn't like the skaven was aiming for the throat or something. The GM just as easily could have said, "Ok, take a wound". Instead he died like a bitch.
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Post by chronovore on Jun 21, 2017 6:21:53 GMT -8
Also, thanks Stu Venable for reading my email. Player agency is paramount in my games. About 99% of the time, I do pretty well at protecting it. That day, not so much. As for the chocolate covered espresso beans, my main concern was that you were going to crash early. You were SO WIRED mid afternoon, before we even started playing! It wasn't the initial leap that I remember, it was the convulsing aftershocks that told me how much caffeine you had running through your system. ;-)
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Post by Stu Venable on Jun 21, 2017 6:47:14 GMT -8
When I look back at death scenes, there's one that sticks out in my mind. Wash from Serenity.
It's not dramatic. It's not at a high point of tension or drama. It's completely random, but it's also one of the most talked about film deaths in my circle of friends.
And I think that's because we knew him. We identified with him. We know those around them, and we saw how his death affected them .
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Jun 21, 2017 7:36:47 GMT -8
And we loved him, because he was us, he was our voice.
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 21, 2017 8:02:39 GMT -8
It's not dramatic. It's not at a high point of tension or drama. Oh, Stu.... You are sooooo mistaken. ^.^ There is plenty of drama to Wash's death, and tension as well. Serenity tears through the warzone, barely navigates to the bay, and touches down. All is well, right? They're safe. BAM!! Nope!!! Wash's death is the dramatic upbeat to the conflict after the briefest of rests. It's like a horror story. You can't just keep piling on tension, or you burn out your audience. You need a break. The landing is that break, but the story is still barreling along and Wash's death rips you from that rest and catapults you back into the tension.
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Jun 21, 2017 8:07:07 GMT -8
Right? They kill Wash during the decompression of a high tension scene. It hits us because we thought the tension was done, then BAM, a character is unceremoniously killed. That's good writing.
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Post by Stu Venable on Jun 21, 2017 8:34:03 GMT -8
What I'm saying is, it's not a meaningful death, story-wise. It's not like he gets mortally wounded, yet still lands the ship. It's not a great sacrifice. Just random. Might as well have been a random kobold attack after leaving the dungeon.
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Post by Probie Tim on Jun 21, 2017 8:40:07 GMT -8
Serenity tears through the warzone, barely navigates to the bay, and touches down. All is well, right? They're safe. BAM!! Nope!!! ...because... ...and then... That's totally the way it should have happened.
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sdJasper
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 30
Preferred Game Systems: GURPS, Fudge, PDQ
Currently Running: GURPS Traveller Interstellar Wars
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Post by sdJasper on Jun 21, 2017 8:46:00 GMT -8
sdJasper Not only when dice shouldn't have been rolled, that's just the most obvious form of it. While it is possible to fall and whack you head at any time, that isn't really a satisfying resolution in a game. That's because stakes were never established. If a guy mugs you at knife point we know being stabbed (possibly fatally) is on the line. I have no problem with someone falling down the stairs to their death if they were pushed, for example. It's when we see a situation crossover from trivial to lethal that there is a problem. I can give an example from my own time playing. The game is warhammer fantasy roleplay, 2nd ed. Our group of Bretonian knights had been captured by skaven (rat people) and locked in jail. When one of the knights wouldn't stop making noise they came by to whip him into submission (with a literal whip). The player said he was going to keep screaming til they did damage to him, prompting the GM to pick up dice (thus his mistake). A punch of explosions later, a weapon that normally does almost no damage kills a healthy knight in a single blow. Is it possible to die from a single whip strike? Maybe, but it certainly wasn't appropriate. It wasn't like the skaven was aiming for the throat or something. The GM just as easily could have said, "Ok, take a wound". Instead he died like a bitch. So, I have a few thoughts on this: 1) Your playing the wrong system. I've never played WFR, but I have played in games with exploding dice mechanics and realize that any roll can go to a "max damage" point. If that isn't something that you as a player can live with, don't play that system or have [house] rules that limit how much dice can explode. 2) Dice weren't needed. Again, this goes to my point of if there is only one acceptable outcome, then no dice are needed. The GM could just say, "they beat you savagely, take a point of damage. Do you shut up now?" As this was to goal for the scene. Personally I wouldn't have done this, but if that was the only acceptable outcome for the group, then that is probably what should have happened. 3) That sounds awesome! The scene as you describe it (and I assume you played a friend or companion if the PC that died), that your PC and co were captured, and one of them began to scream, and the guard whipped him. Through some turn of fate or odd chance, this blow killed your companion (perhaps the whip wrapped around his neck and the guard choked him to death, or maybe it trip him and he fell back and split his head open, thats up to the GM and the rules to determine exactly what the exploding dice mean). Now you are still in this cell looking down at the dead body of someone you once fought along side of, killed for crying out at his imprisonment! What does your character feel? How will this effect him/her? Can this PC ever look at a skaven with anything other than hate? Will you now have a life long vow to wipe out the skaven? Your whole character arc could take a turn to revenge! See THAT is drama, THAT is the power of a "trivial" death. edit: [] above to clarify
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 21, 2017 8:53:42 GMT -8
What I'm saying is, it's not a meaningful death, story-wise. It's not like he gets mortally wounded, yet still lands the ship. It's not a great sacrifice. Just random. Might as well have been a random kobold attack after leaving the dungeon. I think that a better analogy would be getting caught by a previously undiscovered trap in the entry to the dungeon. Remember, they're still in the middle of a Reaver fleet and the Alliance fleet, both of whom want them dead (for very different reasons, granted). It's about as random a death as any of the soldiers on the beaches of Normandy. They're in the middle of a mine field, and for the briefest of moments we allow ourselves to think that they'll all be safe; when WHAM!, we're reminded that they're surrounded by death and violence.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2017 14:33:44 GMT -8
[snip] A mugging might be a 'random' encounter, but it's still an important event in the game to the audience (the players). No one told them that you decided to roll on a chart. Even if you did tell them, that is usually based on something. This neighborhood is dangerous, so there is a chance you get mugged when walking through it. The fact that you rolled to see if it happened or not doesn't really make it random. Even the basic D&D 'wandering monster' encounters aren't really random. They happen as a response to the character's remaining in a dangerous area. Would we call a session random if the GM used charts to come up with the premise for it? No. Then why do we keep insisting that encounters are random? They're not. Unplanned? Not even. That chart came from somewhere. 'Random' combats carry as much weight as any other combat. There is danger inherent in it because of the fighting. If that wasn't the case then it wouldn't even be an encounter, it would be a narration speed bump. A good point I've seen before is the random encounter. What is the purpose of a random encounter? I kind of think it's an evolutionary leftover in game design. What are you going for? D&D has had (in 1e and I think 5e again now) a random dungeon generator - in that case, yes, have random monsters, possibly more powerful than the PCs. But in a game, a random encounter off a chart is really just Random Damage and Resource Expenditure. And in earlier editions especially of D&D that caused the problem of the 15-Minute Workday -- "I cast my one spell and now we need to rest or else I'm useless..."
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Post by ayslyn on Jun 21, 2017 15:16:48 GMT -8
[snip] A mugging might be a 'random' encounter, but it's still an important event in the game to the audience (the players). No one told them that you decided to roll on a chart. Even if you did tell them, that is usually based on something. This neighborhood is dangerous, so there is a chance you get mugged when walking through it. The fact that you rolled to see if it happened or not doesn't really make it random. Even the basic D&D 'wandering monster' encounters aren't really random. They happen as a response to the character's remaining in a dangerous area. Would we call a session random if the GM used charts to come up with the premise for it? No. Then why do we keep insisting that encounters are random? They're not. Unplanned? Not even. That chart came from somewhere. 'Random' combats carry as much weight as any other combat. There is danger inherent in it because of the fighting. If that wasn't the case then it wouldn't even be an encounter, it would be a narration speed bump. A good point I've seen before is the random encounter. What is the purpose of a random encounter? I kind of think it's an evolutionary leftover in game design. What are you going for? D&D has had (in 1e and I think 5e again now) a random dungeon generator - in that case, yes, have random monsters, possibly more powerful than the PCs. But in a game, a random encounter off a chart is really just Random Damage and Resource Expenditure. And in earlier editions especially of D&D that caused the problem of the 15-Minute Workday -- "I cast my one spell and now we need to rest or else I'm useless..." It's to add verisimilitude to the world. We run into all sorts of random "encounters" every day. For every event in a world to be directly related to the plot strains verisimilitude. Hence throw-away encounters. Now, some gms prefer to plan such encounters out, others prefer the unexpected of the table. It's a matter of taste.
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dadofaes
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 15
Preferred Game Systems: D&D 2e, Villains & Vigilantes, Star Wars (d6), Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP), Torg...old guy playing old games
Currently Playing: RuneQuest/Luther Arkright
Currently Running: Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP), Torg 1.5 & Torg Eternity
Favorite Species of Monkey: The kind that doesn't fling its poo
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Post by dadofaes on Jun 21, 2017 15:17:44 GMT -8
As for the chocolate covered espresso beans, my main concern was that you were going to crash early. You were SO WIRED mid afternoon, before we even started playing! It wasn't the initial leap that I remember, it was the convulsing aftershocks that told me how much caffeine you had running through your system. ;-) Did he write a ZINE!!!!! that night?
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shinigamitwo
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 45
Preferred Game Systems: oWoD, Deadlands, D&D
Currently Playing: Deadlands HOE Classic - The Doctor Rides Agin!
Currently Running: Vampire 20th Anniversary
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Post by shinigamitwo on Jun 21, 2017 15:42:17 GMT -8
I have thoughts about much of what is being said above, but lack the time to chime in yet, SO EVENTUALLY.
I did want to talk quickly about something that a friend of mine used in a zombie apocalypse home brew he ran. He had the Death Die. When you died, you rolled the die. It had 20 different things that could happen, of which only 2 were death. Roll anything but death, time rewinds slightly as the GM properly narrates the scene, with the death blow becoming a mechanical stat penalty. It allowed him to have highly infectious zombies while not insta-murdering the party. When we got "infected", we rolled and then were not infected any longer unless death was the answer. Then we slowly turned into zombies.
It did not feel particularly gritty but I certainly acted smarter then I would in something like Deadlands (where I love standing in door ways and shooting banditos)
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