tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
|
Post by tomes on Jul 7, 2017 14:11:15 GMT -8
Probie TimSo, obviously and completely unrelated to any other closed threads out there, someone recently asked how to determine the damage of a fall in Dungeon World. The simple answer to the "fall in Dungeon World" question is: follow the fiction. What seems appropriate? It's also perfectly acceptable for the DM to tell the players what the consequences might be, and let them make the decision.
This sounds like it'll be a Defy Danger, and roughly what a 10+ would look like (pulling it off) and a miss might look like (taking a whole lot of damage... or rolling a Last Breath, and having a chance to survive in a bad way, or die outright). That said, the GM may say... This tells us that shit is real. The roll might be an outright Last Breath roll. A 10+ would mean not dying but breaking some bones and maybe coming out of it with 1 HP and some debilities... some serious shit. A miss? Well, that's just death.
|
|
|
Post by Probie Tim on Jul 7, 2017 15:42:33 GMT -8
Thanks for this, tomes. In reading what you wrote, it seems like you're saying that there isn't really a way in Dungeon World for the GM to say something like, "you're standing atop a 20' high castle wall," and for the player to be able to calculate approximately how much damage falling off that castle wall would cause, just from that information. Which is totally fine, my question wasn't one of "d20 is better because of falling damage" or the like. It was solely just a comparison between the two - arguably vastly different - systems. Let me ask you a follow up question: If I'm standing atop that castle wall and decide to jump, I'm going to roll Defy Danger. Let's say that I don't succeed; my roll is not 10+. What determines if I'm going to roll a Last Breath, or just take some damage? I know the ultimate answer is "the narrative decides", but there still has to be some judgement on behalf of the GM, or player, or possibly both, feeding that narrative. And then once the decision is made between rolling Last Breath or just taking some damage, assuming the answer is "just take some damage", what determines how much damage to take? Help me understand... all that.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 19:41:13 GMT -8
Thanks for this, tomes . In reading what you wrote, it seems like you're saying that there isn't really a way in Dungeon World for the GM to say something like, "you're standing atop a 20' high castle wall," and for the player to be able to calculate approximately how much damage falling off that castle wall would cause, just from that information. Which is totally fine, my question wasn't one of "d20 is better because of falling damage" or the like. It was solely just a comparison between the two - arguably vastly different - systems. Let me ask you a follow up question: If I'm standing atop that castle wall and decide to jump, I'm going to roll Defy Danger. Let's say that I don't succeed; my roll is not 10+. What determines if I'm going to roll a Last Breath, or just take some damage? I know the ultimate answer is "the narrative decides", but there still has to be some judgement on behalf of the GM, or player, or possibly both, feeding that narrative. And then once the decision is made between rolling Last Breath or just taking some damage, assuming the answer is "just take some damage", what determines how much damage to take? Help me understand... all that. The triggers for the move decide. Last breath has a trigger. If you've done something that pulls said trigger than you roll it. If you haven't then you don't. So what decides in this case is if you are dying or not, which is typically a function of your HP, but might come about because you had your throat slit or you jumped off a 300 foot tall wall. Here is part of the section on damage in which guidlines are given:
|
|
tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
|
Post by tomes on Jul 7, 2017 20:00:35 GMT -8
What he said. Sometimes a player just balks. Keep in mind: Damage can be assigned even when no move is made, if it follows from the fiction.Similarly, if the fiction is that you fall off a 100' cliff face, the damage will be extreme. Hence a possible use of Last Breath. But yah, there isn't anything rules-wise which says explicitly when Defy Danger vs Last Breath vs whatever is used, other than the trigger for the move itself, which can sometimes be open to interpretation. Some players don't like this, and that's understandable. However, the rules are explicit on certain points for the GM. Agendas: - Portray a fantastic world
- Fill the characters’ lives with adventure
- Play to find out what happens
Or this very important principle: "Be a fan of the characters". I.e. don't be an adversarial asshole.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2017 21:53:09 GMT -8
As a note, I would not have a player roll Defy Danger unless the peril they are in can be mitigated fully. A 10+ on defy danger means that the danger does not come to pass, which isn't something that I would allow on a 100 foot drop. You are going to get hurt. I might come up with a custom move to allow you to try and reduce how hurt you will be, but I might just tell you that it's X amount of damage. Tuck and roll doesn't help much at terminal velocity, after all.
One could argue that there is no appropriate stat to choose that would help you with a problem like a 100 foot fall. Maybe a Demi god could try and use their con to endure the fall, but not anyone that could die from mundane means.
|
|
|
Post by Probie Tim on Jul 8, 2017 8:18:09 GMT -8
Ok, that's helpful. So, theoretically, a PbtA game could go like this (going back to my original, original post, and recognizing that this rigid hypothetical probably isn't what would happen but does serve for example's sake): PbtA player: "How tall is this wall?" PbtA GM: "It's 10 feet tall." PbtA player: "How much damage would I take if I were to jump off of it?" PbtA GM: "It might break some bones." PbtA player: *thinks* hmm, that's a d8 damage; it sounds like the odds are good that I'll survive. */thinks* "Ok, I'm going to jump off it!" And then, having jumped off of it, if enough damage was incurred, I might get to roll a Last Breath or something. Does that sound about right?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 10:55:35 GMT -8
Essentially yes though (and somebody more familiar correct me if I'm wrong) the GM could assign a flat damage value rather than rolling to represent something that there is no way you could take only 1 damage. Say jumping off of a high tower where taking 1 damage doesn't fit the fiction.
Last breath is rolled when you die, so yes it could be when you take enough damage or if you jumped from high enough then in the fiction it would make sense to just die and go straight to rolling last breath. In many ways it's a common sense thing.
|
|
HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
Currently Playing: Monsterhearts 2
Currently Running: The Sprawl
Favorite Species of Monkey: None
|
Post by HyveMynd on Jul 8, 2017 15:17:40 GMT -8
That sounds about right Probie Tim. As the trigger for Last Breath move is "when you die" though, the player would only make that move if their character suffered enough damage from the fall to drop their HP to zero. But as the GM said the fall was high enough to possibly break bones, I'd say they're well within their rights to describe the character breaking an arm or a leg on impact. I would probably make that clear when the player asked how high the wall was though. Maybe the fall could be a Defy Danger move. The thing about DD is that it scales for the situation. A 10+ (full success) for a 10' jump probably means the PC is totally fine, while a 6- (a miss) might be a bit of damage. For a jump from a 50' wall though? Success might be a single broken leg and some cracked ribs, while a miss is outright death. Defy Danger is kind of a unique move in Dungeon World because of that scaling. The success / mixed results / bad thing results totally depend on the situation at hand. Many other DW moves clearly state what happens for each outcome.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2017 22:21:52 GMT -8
That sounds about right Probie Tim . As the trigger for Last Breath move is "when you die" though, the player would only make that move if their character suffered enough damage from the fall to drop their HP to zero. But as the GM said the fall was high enough to possibly break bones, I'd say they're well within their rights to describe the character breaking an arm or a leg on impact. I would probably make that clear when the player asked how high the wall was though. Maybe the fall could be a Defy Danger move. The thing about DD is that it scales for the situation. A 10+ (full success) for a 10' jump probably means the PC is totally fine, while a 6- (a miss) might be a bit of damage. For a jump from a 50' wall though? Success might be a single broken leg and some cracked ribs, while a miss is outright death. Defy Danger is kind of a unique move in Dungeon World because of that scaling. The success / mixed results / bad thing results totally depend on the situation at hand. Many other DW moves clearly state what happens for each outcome. Huh? I haven't seen the part of defy danger that scales. It, like every other move, has a set of results depending on the roll. The only part that changes is the solving for X, where X equals the given threat. 10+ means the threat does not come to pass. That means no broken legs, no damage, no nada. The thing I would tell Tim is that those guidelines are based on normal people. Normal people often have 3 HP. A fighter with 20+ HP is not normal. If I tell said fighter that it would be a deadly fall, I'm not going to be rolling a D10 for damage. I try to describe the world as the characters would see it, not through the lens of some common villager. Bob the drunk farmer can die falling out of the hay loft. You aren't Bob.
|
|
|
Post by joecrak on Jul 16, 2017 17:20:08 GMT -8
Probie Tim semi serious question my dude. Regarding the 10 foot fall causing 10d6 damage. I'm guessing that's based off knowing the rules of falling damage, but was this just a made up number, or accurate to a specific system. Cause 1d6 damage for a 1 foot fall seems silly.
|
|
|
Post by Probie Tim on Jul 16, 2017 19:03:58 GMT -8
Probie Tim semi serious question my dude. Regarding the 10 foot fall causing 10d6 damage. I'm guessing that's based off knowing the rules of falling damage, but was this just a made up number, or accurate to a specific system. Cause 1d6 damage for a 1 foot fall seems silly. It's 1d6 damage for each 10' fallen. Did I say 10d6 for a 10' fall? Heh, whoops. Not at all what I meant.
|
|
|
Post by joecrak on Jul 17, 2017 6:06:48 GMT -8
Probie Tim semi serious question my dude. Regarding the 10 foot fall causing 10d6 damage. I'm guessing that's based off knowing the rules of falling damage, but was this just a made up number, or accurate to a specific system. Cause 1d6 damage for a 1 foot fall seems silly. It's 1d6 damage for each 10' fallen. Did I say 10d6 for a 10' fall? Heh, whoops. Not at all what I meant. Okay! That makes so much more sense, I was like....i have a higher than 1 foot verticle leap, so how often am I taking 1d6?!
|
|
|
Post by Probie Tim on Jul 17, 2017 6:08:58 GMT -8
Okay! That makes so much more sense, I was like....i have a higher than 1 foot verticle leap, so how often am I taking 1d6?! Well. I mean... you are a very high level joecrak, so you probably have LOTS of HP. 1d6 is probably like a... paper cut or something.
|
|
|
Post by joecrak on Jul 18, 2017 4:49:45 GMT -8
It's true. I've got the celebrity advanced role and everything. I've changed playbook about 3 times!
|
|
|
Post by flyingjackelope on Jul 19, 2017 18:48:25 GMT -8
This was very informative. Thank you everyone that participated.
|
|