fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
HJRP 19-18
Jul 26, 2017 13:02:59 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by fredrix on Jul 26, 2017 13:02:59 GMT -8
So if the Disney Three Musketeers was a ripoff of the Lester films..... Stork, you do realize that they were books first, right? I like the Disney version. It's fun. Also, The Man In the Iron Mask was fantastic. "Magnificent"
|
|
nanoboy
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 142
|
Post by nanoboy on Jul 26, 2017 13:07:31 GMT -8
I ran the Stars are Right Wars. That sounds AWESOME. I've never been able to nail fantasy + Lovecraft; that's a hard one to do. I mean, what is the horror in deep ones and Cthulhu when you've got kuo toa and dragons running around? My best game was a Vampire: the Masquerade game set in Arkham where the Baali weren't Satanists, they were Elder God cultists. Ah, but one of the fundamental inspirations of D&D was Lovecraft. Many of the aberrations are Lovecraftian, and the classic module "The Gates of Firestorm Peak" had to do with the Far Realm, a Lovecraft-inspired plane of things man and elf were not meant to know. There are cultists as villains (an idea pioneered by Lovecraft), illithids, and warlocks who derive their power from Cthulhu himself.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 13:15:49 GMT -8
On the topic of Cthulhu has anybody tried / read the one on one Cthulhu Confidential? Yes, in fact I was an official playtester. What do you want to know? Is it any good? What's it like just to read through? Does the system have milage beyond cthulhu adventures?
|
|
|
HJRP 19-18
Jul 26, 2017 13:51:19 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by joecrak on Jul 26, 2017 13:51:19 GMT -8
So if the Disney Three Musketeers was a ripoff of the Lester films..... Stork, you do realize that they were books first, right? I like the Disney version. It's fun. Also, The Man In the Iron Mask was fantastic. ... To each their own, but that movie is trash! Trash I say! That movie completely ruins the characterization of Louis XIV!
|
|
|
Post by Probie Tim on Jul 26, 2017 15:09:53 GMT -8
Ah, but one of the fundamental inspirations of D&D was Lovecraft. Many of the aberrations are Lovecraftian, and the classic module "The Gates of Firestorm Peak" had to do with the Far Realm, a Lovecraft-inspired plane of things man and elf were not meant to know. There are cultists as villains (an idea pioneered by Lovecraft), illithids, and warlocks who derive their power from Cthulhu himself. True, true, I'm not doubting that. And I do have a Cthulhu and Melnibonean Mythos edition of Deities and Demigods. But they're not *horrific* in D&D. Or even truly alien, or aberrant, or anything other than "more monsters and bad guys". This is one of the reasons I'm digging so much on Lamentations of the Flame Princess. It's panders more to the mindset where Things Man Was Not Meant To Know are actually Things Man Was Not Meant To Know and not orcs and dragons with different window dressing.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 26, 2017 16:32:05 GMT -8
Ah, but one of the fundamental inspirations of D&D was Lovecraft. Many of the aberrations are Lovecraftian, and the classic module "The Gates of Firestorm Peak" had to do with the Far Realm, a Lovecraft-inspired plane of things man and elf were not meant to know. There are cultists as villains (an idea pioneered by Lovecraft), illithids, and warlocks who derive their power from Cthulhu himself. True, true, I'm not doubting that. And I do have a Cthulhu and Melnibonean Mythos edition of Deities and Demigods. But they're not *horrific* in D&D. Or even truly alien, or aberrant, or anything other than "more monsters and bad guys". This is one of the reasons I'm digging so much on Lamentations of the Flame Princess. It's panders more to the mindset where Things Man Was Not Meant To Know are actually Things Man Was Not Meant To Know and not orcs and dragons with different window dressing. --- I think this hits on something a friend and I were discussing. We have a mutual friend who is not a big fan of d20 because of the whole 'Still 100% functional at 1 hp' thing, and I think sometimes maybe it's a system issue. Like you said, kuo toa and sahaugin etc are really just reskinned humanoids. Most Mythos stories are non-combat, contact should be avoided at all costs etc -- how do you reflect that in fantasy where there are other fantastic elements or means to fight things back? I've never played it but old Warhammer Fantasy, from my reading, seemed a lot like D&D meets Lovecraft. Active cults, chaos comets, weird stuff... maybe extra creepy because they used British spelling (extra mental damage from extra letters in armor, etc). I know I'm rambling but... I think game mechanics create a mental safety for the player in a Mythos type setting that you don't find if you're using Dread (which resolves actions etc by having the player pull Jenga tiles)
|
|
fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Jul 27, 2017 0:03:38 GMT -8
Yes, in fact I was an official playtester. What do you want to know? Is it any good? What's it like just to read through? Does the system have milage beyond cthulhu adventures? In find Robin D Laws games divide opinion so I'll same if you like Feng Shui, HeroQuest, Dying Earth, Hillfolk and of course GUMSHOE based games, then yes it's very good. Things people may NOT like about the system are: no character generation - Laws sees this as unnecessary homework, so you get to slightly customise a character by choosing a problem; single die resolution* - no bell curve; and, it's narrativist rather than tactical. * actually not quite, see later. Laws designs systems to deal with particular problems, and in this case it's the problem of "one character", so the PC can't die until the end of the adventure, because there are no other PCs to carry the story on. That doesn't mean that the PC leads a gifted life, s/he may acquire a "death" consequence, but it won't take effect until the climax of the adventure. There is also a mechanic of a network of contacts to make up for skills the single PC doesn't have. It's gumshoe based, but the gore mechanic is not quite the same, rather than a points pool based task resolution (designed in normal Gumshoe to ensure each player gets a turn in the spotlight) there's a "push" mechanic which involves rolling another die and taking a consequence. I find Laws a joy to read. There's a lot in the front on how to play 121 games, which comes out of playtesting. Lots of people reported on how intense it was, because there's no side-chat or jokes. The bulk of the book is three scenarios one by Laws and one each written by (and featuring as the PC) a woman and a POC. This was always planned, but I was interested to see the amount of anger directed at Pelgrane by playtesters because the lack of character generation means you can't create diverse characters. (Of course you can always tweak a character to be black or female in your head). I've only played through one game, and have loaned the book to a friend, but the adventures look great. It's not a PBTA game in that you CAN NOT get away without designing a (or using a prewritten) scenario. The consequences and edges are story specific, and creating new adventures would be a lot of work. But yes the core system could be applied to games beyond the mythos. Laws' latest yellow king RPG starts to stretch the consequences mechanic into other directions. And there's advice on adapting other gumshoe worlds to the system in the back.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 0:47:00 GMT -8
What is the purpose of annoying a player character? Controlling the actions of a PC is not in the wheelhouse of a GM. Sure, they might have NPC's trying to put a stick in his craw, but the outcome of the PC getting annoyed is not something they have the power to determine. Either the player will determine his character's moods or the dice will. Most cases involving dice will still involve the player because there are multiple possible outcomes (the difference being the player is restricted to certain outcomes and doesn't have the ability to 100% dictate a response).
As an example, a character may taunt another character (as in a test of wills in Savage Worlds). If that attempt is successful, we know there will be some kind of negative outcome for the loser. Mechanically this might come as a penalty or inflicting shaken. But will the character be annoyed, angry, or dumbfounded? Those specifics are up to the player in most games (a notable exception being mind control powers with specific outcomes).
There is one basic way to annoy a character without annoying a player. This comes from the dissonance between living in a world under real conditions and observing that world as a story. Riding through a rainstorm sucks. Stubbing ones toe sucks. Trying to tighten a bolt in a place where a wrench just doesn't fit nicely sucks. All of those things are crap, for the character. The player is sitting at a table eating chips and drinking with his buddies. He experiances none of the frustration of his character. He isn't worn out and dealing with "that fucking shitty blown radiator!" For the fifth time today. His character is though.
Character misery on a basic level is unlinked from a players misery. Thus whatever emotion the character is experiencing because of said misery is at best faked by the player. Often this dissonance is magnified by eliding time in a game. Those other four times your car broke down today? Well they weren't roleplayed. The GM narrated them and the rest of the journey up until this fifth blow out where the story zooms back in and the characters are acting. It would be really annoying on a player level to deal with a busted car five times in a single day in an rpg, but only if you actually have to do anything about it. In fact, skipping the first four break downs and playing out the fifth can be a kind of joy for a player. They get to go off on their hunk of junk car with gusto without having to go through the previous break downs. It's 100% outlet with 0% annoyance. All the fun of the reaction, with none (or little) of the real emotion tied up into it.
Whatever you do to the player you do to the character, but what you do to the character may not influence the player. A player can have fun roleplaying being tortured because he feels none of the actual pain of said activity. He gets to be James Bond and ask the villain for another because he has "an iche down there". Not everyone would enjoy that kind of interaction, but we can clearly see what happens in character and what happens to the player are two seperate things. Getting a rise from one does not nessecitate anything from the other.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2017 15:36:06 GMT -8
The GM narrated them and the rest of the journey up until this fifth blow out where the story zooms back in and the characters are acting. It would be really annoying on a player level to deal with a busted car five times in a single day in an rpg, but only if you actually have to do anything about it. In fact, skipping the first four break downs and playing out the fifth can be a kind of joy for a player. They get to go off on their hunk of junk car with gusto without having to go through the previous break downs. It's 100% outlet with 0% annoyance. All the fun of the reaction, with none (or little) of the real emotion tied up into it. Y'know, I totally agree. I'll use the example we can all relate to of having an utterly cruddy day where everything goes wrong. It snowballs - you notice it at first, you notice it the second and fifth and seventh thing that goes wrong. It doesn't really seem like you make a list. Same with a trip with five engine breaks down. You probably don't need to roleplay each and every section, wire loose, bad plug, etc etc. unless there is a Story there, some foreshadowing, something that makes it all connect. Kind of like the Baader Meinhof Effect - the human brain's tendency to connect improbably patterns together, like how you might never see a certain shade of color or a certain type of car and then you buy one, and suddenly it's everywhere...
|
|
mrcj
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 173
|
Post by mrcj on Jul 27, 2017 16:00:06 GMT -8
Two quick things to think about for noir cyberpunk games:
Chinatown, the Maltese Falcon, and Blade Runner, there are endings but the idea of clear winners and losers are very blurred.
It is a feeling. Keep the money low. Lots of times in cyberpunk and sci-fi characters can buy their way out of a noir setting. All those noir gumshoes are always one check away from getting evicted.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2017 2:45:26 GMT -8
Two quick things to think about for noir cyberpunk games: Chinatown, the Maltese Falcon, and Blade Runner, there are endings but the idea of clear winners and losers are very blurred. It is a feeling. Keep the money low. Lots of times in cyberpunk and sci-fi characters can buy their way out of a noir setting. All those noir gumshoes are always one check away from getting evicted. I think that sums up Shadowrun's world. Always one paycheck away from being evicted, one bad bounce away from a disaster. A world where the payday sounds great until you realize the majority of the money is going to be expenses to get the id's, to get the uniforms, to get the bribe... Again, from a SR point of view, I'd say the world also needs people the PCs can count on. Yes, the world may be out to chew you up and destroy you, but you have your friends, your reliable contacts that won't betray you.
|
|
dadofaes
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 15
Preferred Game Systems: D&D 2e, Villains & Vigilantes, Star Wars (d6), Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP), Torg...old guy playing old games
Currently Playing: RuneQuest/Luther Arkright
Currently Running: Marvel Super Heroes (FASERIP), Torg 1.5 & Torg Eternity
Favorite Species of Monkey: The kind that doesn't fling its poo
|
Post by dadofaes on Jul 29, 2017 15:17:29 GMT -8
Woohoooo! Second generation Jacker on board! Looks like like this show might stand a chance of outliving the old farts who started it. Seconded! Emily can return any time she wants. Stork, nice work raising that kid.
|
|
|
Post by mook on Jul 29, 2017 17:36:18 GMT -8
I think that sums up Shadowrun's world. Always one paycheck away from being evicted, one bad bounce away from a disaster. A world where the payday sounds great until you realize the majority of the money is going to be expenses Wait, I play RPGs to get *away* from real life.
|
|
|
Post by joecrak on Jul 30, 2017 5:56:26 GMT -8
Two quick things to think about for noir cyberpunk games: Chinatown, the Maltese Falcon, and Blade Runner, there are endings but the idea of clear winners and losers are very blurred. It is a feeling. Keep the money low. Lots of times in cyberpunk and sci-fi characters can buy their way out of a noir setting. All those noir gumshoes are always one check away from getting evicted. I think that sums up Shadowrun's world. Always one paycheck away from being evicted, one bad bounce away from a disaster. A world where the payday sounds great until you realize the majority of the money is going to be expenses to get the id's, to get the uniforms, to get the bribe... Again, from a SR point of view, I'd say the world also needs people the PCs can count on. Yes, the world may be out to chew you up and destroy you, but you have your friends, your reliable contacts that won't betray you. And yet, for me, Shadowrun is so far from enjoyable Cyberpunk because of it's weird mission/heist based structure.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2017 13:48:08 GMT -8
I think that sums up Shadowrun's world. Always one paycheck away from being evicted, one bad bounce away from a disaster. A world where the payday sounds great until you realize the majority of the money is going to be expenses to get the id's, to get the uniforms, to get the bribe... Again, from a SR point of view, I'd say the world also needs people the PCs can count on. Yes, the world may be out to chew you up and destroy you, but you have your friends, your reliable contacts that won't betray you. And yet, for me, Shadowrun is so far from enjoyable Cyberpunk because of it's weird mission/heist based structure. If you haven't had a chance to check it out, Harebrained Schemes has a pretty phenomenal series of Shadowrun games on Steam. YMMV, but they're not straight 'heists', and I think helped me understand a better way to string a plot along besides straight heists and betrayals. I think it helps that HBS was created by Jordan Weisman who created SR (and Battletech, the next of their computer games). The first one was great, started with you in your rundown apartment getting a call from someone you did a run with before saying, 'Hey, if you're getting this, I was murdered and there's a ton of money if you can solve the murder.' And then it's mystery after mystery. I think that some systems - D&D, Shadowrun come to mind - hit a bottleneck because when you're learning it, you learn the trope of it. You may get the feel, the idea of it but at the same time, it gives an impression of 'if you don't play this way, you're doing Wrongfun'.
|
|