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Post by joecrak on Oct 9, 2017 20:16:27 GMT -8
My initial read through was one of I'm glad they brought L5R into the narrative dice, I love those, and even more since they streamlined them down. The rest of the rules are a bit too crunchy for my liking. Yeah, I've only skimmed through it and I really like the dice, but I have to admit that there seems to be a lot of fiddly stuff. Just the fact that each skill seems to have its own list of effects/bonuses and stuff like that. It feels like, short of constantly going through the book every time dice are rolled, you'd need to have a metric ass-ton of charts printed out in front of you at all times just in case a dice roll is required. I can deal with that if it's needed but it is definitely not a plus for me. Not a deal breaker, but still unfortunate. The spending of xp is currently ridiculously slow. 7th Sea 1e suffered from this, and it was not fun. I also don't like how the book doesn't provide any potential gm's examples on what to do if the player should happen to fail a roll entirely. This bit about when to make a check: "Could the character fail? • Could they possibly succeed? • Are the consequences of success different from the consequences of failure? • Are the consequences of success and failure both interesting?" It's great, I love it. It basically says something interesting should always happen when dice are rolled. But they provide no examples of interesting things to make happen should a check fail.
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Post by RudeAlert on Oct 9, 2017 20:55:54 GMT -8
Yeah, I've only skimmed through it and I really like the dice, but I have to admit that there seems to be a lot of fiddly stuff. Just the fact that each skill seems to have its own list of effects/bonuses and stuff like that. It feels like, short of constantly going through the book every time dice are rolled, you'd need to have a metric ass-ton of charts printed out in front of you at all times just in case a dice roll is required. I can deal with that if it's needed but it is definitely not a plus for me. Not a deal breaker, but still unfortunate. The spending of xp is currently ridiculously slow. 7th Sea 1e suffered from this, and it was not fun. I also don't like how the book doesn't provide any potential gm's examples on what to do if the player should happen to fail a roll entirely. This bit about when to make a check: "Could the character fail? • Could they possibly succeed? • Are the consequences of success different from the consequences of failure? • Are the consequences of success and failure both interesting?" It's great, I love it. It basically says something interesting should always happen when dice are rolled. But they provide no examples of interesting things to make happen should a check fail. Well, it is a Beta so some stuff was deliberately left out for simplicity, as for other issues, well hopefully the Beta will do its job and get things fixed before the final product is published. I believe the GM end of things was largely held back to focus on the basic functionality of the rules, so that might account for things being rather thin on the GM guidance side of things.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Oct 9, 2017 21:23:57 GMT -8
Yeah I worry about crunch. Two experienced players are already complaining to me that making characters is harder work than it should be in this day and age.
I'm less worried about the plethora of opportunities etc given for each skill. I strongly get the suggestion that they offer these only as a way of thinking, not hard and fast rules. I'm sure I've read somewhere in the rules if an opportunity doesn't apply or you (GM or player) can't think of onethat fits the narrative, then it's no big deal.
Also not worried about the absence of results for failures. This isn't PbtA. You only toll the dice when you already know that the consequences of might be interesting. So that implies you have an idea what the consequences are.
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Post by ericfromnj on Oct 10, 2017 10:37:43 GMT -8
Finally looked at it some. It looks promising though I know after ffg Star Wars the dice are not for me. I don't have any problems with the concept of special dice, I just don't find them as something for me.
It may also have to do with the fact that I have not played enough 4e to be weary of it and ready for a new edition also.
That said this conversation is very interesting and I hope it keeps going.
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Post by ayslyn on Oct 10, 2017 10:38:07 GMT -8
Yeah I worry about crunch. Two experienced players are already complaining to me that making characters is harder work than it should be in this day and age. SIr Guido, flyingjackalope, and I made characters this past weekend. Now, speaking only for myself, I found it quite simple. The twenty questions is an elegant way of making the character.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Oct 10, 2017 13:21:10 GMT -8
Yeah I worry about crunch. Two experienced players are already complaining to me that making characters is harder work than it should be in this day and age. SIr Guido, flyingjackalope, and I made characters this past weekend. Now, speaking only for myself, I found it quite simple. The twenty questions is an elegant way of making the character. Well it looks quite simple to me too. But I haven’t actually sat down to do it yet. I haven’t had time, which may in fact be telling in these days of PbtA , Blades in the Dark, etc.
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Post by ayslyn on Oct 10, 2017 13:37:20 GMT -8
Only in a completely subjective way.
I am not saying that it is going to be everyone’s game. Is character creation more involved than a PBtA game’s? Sure. Is that an objectively bad thing? Not even a little.
If it’s not for them then it’s not for them. But saying that it’s harder work than it should be in this day and age? No.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
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Post by fredrix on Oct 10, 2017 14:17:55 GMT -8
Only in a completely subjective way. I am not saying that it is going to be everyone’s game. Is character creation more involved than a PBtA game’s? Sure. Is that an objectively bad thing? Not even a little. If it’s not for them then it’s not for them. But saying that it’s harder work than it should be in this day and age? No. I’m not convinced you are right. FFGs Star Wars for example, has a complex system (that put my son off the game entirely, after I’d forked out £35 for the book), that gives players the illusion of nuance and differentiation, and yet play doesn’t reward that hard work. The actions players make in the games (that i’ve observed) have been archetypal. I was happy to spend time (and so was at least one of these players) creating L5R 4th ed characters, because I was rewarded with different options in play. I hope for the same in this edition.
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Post by ayslyn on Oct 10, 2017 14:58:10 GMT -8
Only in a completely subjective way. I am not saying that it is going to be everyone’s game. Is character creation more involved than a PBtA game’s? Sure. Is that an objectively bad thing? Not even a little. If it’s not for them then it’s not for them. But saying that it’s harder work than it should be in this day and age? No. I’m not convinced you are right. FFGs Star Wars for example, has a complex system (that put my son off the game entirely, after I’d forked out £35 for the book), that gives players the illusion of nuance and differentiation, and yet play doesn’t reward that hard work. The actions players make in the games (that i’ve observed) have been archetypal. I was happy to spend time (and so was at least one of these players) creating L5R 4th ed characters, because I was rewarded with different options in play. I hope for the same in this edition. Perhaps you are confusing objective and subjective? If you don’t like a game, that’s subjective. It’s your opinion, and while valid, doesn’t apply to everyone else. Your friends’ statement, as relayed here, suggests that they are trying to apply their subjective opinion on an objective fact. They don’t like crunchy, complex, lengthy character creation, so that makes it Bad. No one should be doing it. And that’s just... well, stupid. So, before we go down the rabbit hole, let’s pause, regroup, clarify what we are saying.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Oct 10, 2017 16:46:37 GMT -8
Yeah I worry about crunch. Two experienced players are already complaining to me that making characters is harder work than it should be in this day and age. This... makes no sense to me. 3 people made characters on a recording while explaining what we were doing and it took less than an hour. When we did Masks character creation for my game it took a little over 2 hours for 5 people. And most of those people already basically had their characters made they just needed to fill in the playbooks. Most of the APs that do chargen use a full 2-3 hour session for it even in Savage Worlds, Monster of the Week, Masks, and BBT. If you follow the 20 questions through one by one and answer those questions while referencing the book it is incredibly simple and streamlined. It doesn't even remotely complex until you hit the advantages and disadvantages. Sorry, I just can't see it. Is it crunchier than PbtA games? Absolutely. Is it crunchier than 4E L5R? I don't think so. Is it cleaner and more elegant than 4E L5R? By miles. Does it give me everything I want from L5R? Definitely, and more. Does it feel like it might be a little daunting to get used to? Right now, yes. There are some fiddly bits that are a little hard to keep track of that a nice chart would very much help, like the Opportunities. Combat is different, but different is NOT bad. Its just another animal and once I run a few Im sure it will click. Am I maybe a little overly excited because its new L5R? Maybe. Very possible. But I don't think I'm not being objective. I read it with a critical eye, and yes it has problems. Things I've already reported on the playtest forums. But being "hard" or taking too long? No. Absolutely not.
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Post by flyingjackelope on Oct 10, 2017 17:22:10 GMT -8
fredrix, so the reason both Ayslyn, SirGuido, and I (I've only been RPing for a max 1.5 yrs and mostly D&D) are saying it's easy to make character is because of the 20 questions. It literally holds you hand as you make a character. It helps you quantify what your choices mean. It even help you create motives for your character. I was just making a bland swords guy, but Ayslyn was giving flavor to all his choices. Like IKEA furniture, it's not complicated if you just follow the step by step instructions. If you don't want to follow them, I can't help you. The link takes you to a copy of the 20 questions found in the beta. There are a few mistakes, but nothing too overwhelming. I hope this helps.
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Post by ayslyn on Oct 10, 2017 18:11:45 GMT -8
fredrix, so the reason both Ayslyn, SirGuido, and I (I've only been RPing for a max 1.5 yrs and mostly D&D) are saying it's easy to make character is because of the 20 questions. It literally holds you hand as you make a character. It helps you quantify what your choices mean. It even help you create motives for your character. I was just making a bland swords guy, but Ayslyn was giving flavor to all his choices. Like IKEA furniture, it's not complicated if you just follow the step by step instructions. If you don't want to follow them, I can't help you. The link takes you to a copy of the 20 questions found in the beta. There are a few mistakes, but nothing too overwhelming. I hope this helps. In your defense, I have made characters the way you did as well. My handle’s namesake was made that way. I just rolled up a random, generic elven ranger. He was a blank slate even during his first adventure. His personality, history and story came out entirely during play.
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Post by joecrak on Oct 10, 2017 20:15:30 GMT -8
It's really cool that the 20 questions help so much but this: When we did Masks character creation for my game it took a little over 2 hours for 5 people. And most of those people already basically had their characters made they just needed to fill in the playbooks. I am shook and shocked that it took so long for ya'll!
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Oct 10, 2017 21:06:20 GMT -8
Hey, I'm just reporting two of my players telling me it's complex. I haven't even tried yet!
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Post by ayslyn on Oct 11, 2017 6:36:59 GMT -8
Hey, I'm just reporting two of my players telling me it's complex. With all due respect, not really.... You said that they said it was too complex for this day and age.... That's a VERY different statement, and what I am objecting to. HERO characters are extremely complex, GURPS characters are complex... Neither are "more complex than they should be in this day and age", and both of them are miles ahead of L5R (new or old).
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