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Post by RudeAlert on Oct 8, 2017 12:25:50 GMT -8
Regarding the bolded part, I did say: "if the market for RPGs wasn't so damn small, and RPG books so infinitely reusable, prices would rightfully be significantly higher." Um.... No. The PROFIT would be higher. That's vastly different. Again.... No. That's simply put not how it works. I think you might be mistaking pricing and profit. If RPGs were able to go for higher quantity print runs, they would bring their costs down, allowing them to get more of that $50 than they do currently, but it wouldn't allow them to raise the price they charged the consumer. The books are appropriately priced for their size and quality. I'm the first one in line defending the high price points of modern RPG books. When L5R 4e first came out, it was in the early wave of the $50-60 books. People bitched and moaned about how dare they try to rip us off. I pointed out that having handled the books themselves, I could say that it was absolutely a $50 book. Great quality paper, binding, full colour... It was absolutely a book that should be priced at $50. However, I also acknowledged that there was a valid conversation to be had over whether or not it was a good idea to make a $50 book. There are a number of people who think that is simply too much to pay for an RPG. As that's a personal decision, they're right (for them). The move to higher quality production has priced some people out of buying certain RPGs. uumm, yes, I fucked up on my wording... profit is what I was thinking of, not sure why I got hung up on the price angle... guess I'm becoming an old man too... my bad. Maybe I got side-tracked by Stork focusing on the price of the dice, I dunno. In the end though, that last paragraph of yours is basically in line with what I was talking about, prices go up in part due to basic inflation, but also I'd say a gradual increase in material quality. If I consider some of the older RPG books I own, or have seen, there are definitely many high-end RPGs today that make just about anything that came out in the 90s or before look like crap (a subjective opinion no doubt, but in terms of material quality that can hardly be debatable). And as I've said in prior posts above, I very much believe that RPGs are definitely one the cheapest hobbies to get into. The fact that the initial entry price might be higher than some other hobbies doesn't really mean all that much when you consider the final use value of the product you bought. Just to give one comparison, if I buy one Blu-ray (yes I know many people get downloadable versions) at 20$ for a 2-hour movie, that's basically 10$ per hour of entertainment. Sure I can watch it over and over but it's always the exact same thing. If, on the other hand, I buy the new L5R corebook (probably 60$) and let's say I buy 4 dice sets (probably 15$ each), that's a total initial investment of 120$. However, assuming I play only 3 sessions of 4 hours each, for a total of 12 hours, I'm back down to 10$ per hour of entertainment, and that's assuming I never play again, which I most certainly can at no additional cost for as long as I live (or as long as my book doesn't fall apart). And hell, you don't even need to do this much math, just look at the prices of a lot of board-games and war-games. And I would personally argue that for boar-games, at least, the replay value is nothing compared to an RPG.
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Post by ayslyn on Oct 8, 2017 13:09:01 GMT -8
uumm, yes, I fucked up on my wording... profit is what I was thinking of, not sure why I got hung up on the price angle... guess I'm becoming an old man too... my bad. Maybe I got side-tracked by Stork focusing on the price of the dice, I dunno. No worries. We all do that sometimes. ^.^
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Post by flyingjackelope on Oct 8, 2017 13:19:08 GMT -8
The easiest way to put a damper on this is by saying, if you don't want to buy the dice, then you don't have to. After all, if you're going to have to learn how to decipher chicken entrails, it's not much different than learning to decipher the numbers. As I mentioned in the L5R beta, you just skip the step of translating the number->symbols->meaning and just jump from numbers->meanings. Here's a breakdown, just start at 1:
On D6: Blank
Success
Success w/Strife
Explosive Success w/Strife
Opportunity Opportunity w/Strife
On d12: Blank Blank Success Success Success w/Opportunity
Success w/Strife
Success w/Strife
Explosive Success
Explosive Success w/Strife
Opportunity
Opportunity
Opportunity
Unless there's a big backlash, I don't think there's going to be a change. The dice app is pretty nifty because it let's you set up presets, so you don't have to constantly change your rolls for things that may come up quite a bit for your character. If you don't feel like buying the app and don't want to buy new dice, it's not impossible to play with your std d6 and my favorite die d12.
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Post by chronovore on Oct 8, 2017 18:31:14 GMT -8
As someone else pointed out, there's also just buying blank dice and then using an indelible marker to write one's own symbols on the faces. People who like weird polyhedrals are gonna buy weird polyhedrals, even if the markings are the only weird things on a straight-up cube. stork loves playing the devil's advocate, and I'm assuming he enjoys making money just as anyone else does. To tell the truth, we are generally a love-fest here by most forums' standards, so it's kind of nice to have a little opinionated friction between us. ;-)
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Post by EricaOdd on Oct 9, 2017 4:03:48 GMT -8
It seems to me that these games with special dice aren't that much of a money-making scheme, either. You buy the book and you only need to buy it once. The same is true for the dice. Once you have them, you have them. There's no need to buy them again. So if it's a money-making scheme, it only works once...
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2017 16:50:20 GMT -8
On the topic of the costs of gaming books and the costs, I would like to refer humbly to John Wick's article about the Nostalgia Candle here www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/wickoct99.htmlA very interesting look at it from a man who's published games both under a publisher at AEG, and self-published various games on his own. I'll end with my favorite quote: The bottom line is this: game publishers aren't raising their prices. They're charging less today than they were when we started this whole thing. We're keeping prices down, but the price to make these books is going up. The cost of living is going up. The price of movies is going up (I'd love to comment on how much a movie ticket cost in 1977, but I don't have the time or resources to find that kind of information; it'd be interesting to see, though). Rent is going up. The price of paper is going up. The price of a Whopper is going up. The price of Mountain Dew is going up. But the price of roleplaying games is pretty much the same. In some cases, it's even gotten cheaper. And people wonder why we can't afford editors. Sheesh.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Oct 10, 2017 21:21:29 GMT -8
I agree that everything in RPGing has got cheaper in real terms. We get incredible value from companies now compared to 1977. But affordability has gone up too - those of us who had to scrape our pocket money together for one game in '77 have jobs and can afford to spend more on games. Hence we contemplate buying things like Invisible Sun...
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HazelnutMudslide
Supporter
Posts: 129
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, 7th Sea, TriStat, WoD, D&D5e
Currently Playing: Nothing (LFG)
Currently Running: Nothing (LFG)
Favorite Species of Monkey: grease, never know when you'll need one to fix things.
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Post by HazelnutMudslide on Oct 11, 2017 3:49:05 GMT -8
It’s a many-faceted problem:
- if you have the disposable income, then you can’t find a group (even online) - if you have the group, then you can’t find the time to get together and play (yes, even online) - if you have the time, then you don’t have the income to buy the relatively cheap book (usually now charging down the door to piracy, or dealing with PDFs, which is a whole other argument involving hardware at a table etc)
I bought 7thSea 2nd, and Through the Breach, because they sounded interesting. Can’t find group, found a couple semi interested folks, and. Now I have no free time, essentially I’ve now wasted $120. I bought Savage, I’ve played a few one shots, because that’s all I’ve had time for, and none of them led into a gaming group, so I’m currently at the $3/session opportunity cost, which isn’t horrible by any means.
So yes, many people, who love Rokugan (the world), may not wish to drop the funds on another edition, or the dice, or even the app, because they’ve already been “burned” before by having invested time and or money into a game that they may not even get to play due to group interest and or time constraints. Which is quintessentially the bulk of the argument on either side, those who have the group and or time to play may feel its worth the investment, however the rest of us may be struggling to make rent, or child support or food, and want to make absolutely sure enough boxes are checked before dropping dollars.
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Post by akavidar on Oct 12, 2017 16:27:38 GMT -8
I just want to dish out some 7th Sea : Khitai love. The Kickstarter has 31 days to go as of now at www.kickstarter.com/projects/johnwickpresents/7th-sea-khitai?ref=cardThe Khitai Quickstart is available for free on RPGNow www.rpgnow.com/product/220246/7th-Sea-Khitai-QuickstartThe Blurb for the 7th Sea : Khitai Quickstart "Across the world of Terra, far from the familiar kingdoms of Theah, lies the East. The lands of Khitai fill nearly half the world’s map, a rich tapestry of kingdoms connected by adventure, intrigue, trade and exploration. It is an intricate world of contemplative warriors, samurai and animistic mystics, all heeding a Call to Adventure resonating out across the world. Your adventure in 7th Sea: Khitai begins with this Quickstart. This product contains an overview of Khitai, basic rules for running games set in the East, and an adventure for up to five Heroes."
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Myddrin
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 10
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Post by Myddrin on Oct 12, 2017 18:11:48 GMT -8
Ah I was beat to posting the Kickstarter link. Yes it not out yet, just on Kickstarter. But it's a great deal. Only $35 to get the not only the main PDF but every PDF stretch goals splat book.
And honestly, if you missed the 7th Sea 2nd ed Kickstarter, the $45 dollar tier adds the 10 big 7th sea PDF's to your collection too.
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mrcj
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 173
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Post by mrcj on Oct 13, 2017 11:19:32 GMT -8
For the GM trying to get the game going in the comic book store.
It is a tough row to hoe; essentially you are running up against a marketing problem: turning lookie-loos into buyers.
The signage comment was brilliant.
Three quick comments from me.
1. Facebook event notices are useful. Never count on anyone who says they are interested or even RSVPing from facebook ever showing up. It is useful for finding people who picture themselves as the kind of person who would show up for a game. Message those people and engage them in conversation. Introduce yourself if you don't know them. But do that message before the game not after.
2. Piggyback on the comic book mailing list. So make sure you are on the comic Book Store's event calendar, included in their promotion stuff to their list which may be larger (hopefully larger) than the personal one you had mentioned in the email.
3. Don't get lost in the details. When talking about the game in your event calendars etc keep the message simple. "Hey everybody we are doing X. It will be in this system. You don't have to know how to play we will teach you. Date and time."
None of this will guarantee more people, as with all marketing, if I could create something that was sure fire, I'd be a millionaire.
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Post by vyrrk on Oct 13, 2017 11:55:03 GMT -8
It’s a many-faceted problem: - if you have the disposable income, then you can’t find a group (even online) - if you have the group, then you can’t find the time to get together and play (yes, even online) - if you have the time, then you don’t have the income to buy the relatively cheap book (usually now charging down the door to piracy, or dealing with PDFs, which is a whole other argument involving hardware at a table etc) I bought 7thSea 2nd, and Through the Breach, because they sounded interesting. Can’t find group, found a couple semi interested folks, and. Now I have no free time, essentially I’ve now wasted $120. I bought Savage, I’ve played a few one shots, because that’s all I’ve had time for, and none of them led into a gaming group, so I’m currently at the $3/session opportunity cost, which isn’t horrible by any means. So yes, many people, who love Rokugan (the world), may not wish to drop the funds on another edition, or the dice, or even the app, because they’ve already been “burned” before by having invested time and or money into a game that they may not even get to play due to group interest and or time constraints. Which is quintessentially the bulk of the argument on either side, those who have the group and or time to play may feel its worth the investment, however the rest of us may be struggling to make rent, or child support or food, and want to make absolutely sure enough boxes are checked before dropping dollars. That was a very well thought out and expressed post that I totally agree with! I have the money and I even have a group, but I just don't have the time. But even if I have the money, I don't want to waste it on ANOTHER rpg book and dice to sit on my bookshelf because I don't have time to play. It's a stupid world.
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