tappy
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Post by tappy on Jan 7, 2018 14:05:57 GMT -8
I am making points of how I feel about the Clans in L5R. I'm not arguing in the sense that I'm taking offense to what you are saying or anything like that. But I have counterpoints to what you are saying based on my own experiences playing L5R and how I see the different clans. This is one of the things that is really fun about settings that have been around a long time, there is a lot of nuance and room for interpretation. If the Crab were merely "they don't care about honor because of duty" that would be boring as fuck.
That being said, I disagree with your opinions about the Crab. I disagree with the notion that the Crab would sacrifice their honor for duty, or that crab have less of an inclination to commit seppuku than any other clan. They are not barbarians nor are they honorless. While a Crab Daimyo is more likely to grant a samurai the opportunity to wash away the stain on their honor by perishing in battle as per the "dishonored" disadvantage in 4th ed, this also means that without said opportunity, that samurai is committing seppuku. It is a pretty fine point, but if your notion is "you shouldn't have had anyone seppuku in your backstory because you are Crab" then I disagree because that is not only limiting but making the Crab so disinterested in honor as to be dishonorable. The crab are pragmatic, but a pragmatic clan that does not care about honor would look like the Scorpion, not the crab.
When you are talking about "loyalty", I think you might be referring to the "Winter" story in the 1st edition "Way of the Scorpion" book, where a young samurai muses on the most important virtue of a samurai. "Courage" says the Lion, "Resourcefulness" says the Unicorn, "Loyalty" says the Scorpion, "for without loyalty all your virtues serve your foe". The other Samurai scoff, saying that they themselves are also loyal, all samurai are loyal. After deliberation as to how loyal they are, the scorpion offers to give them a demonstration as to the loyalty of the Scorpion. He calls in his Yojimbo and says "Kill me.". Without a moments hesitation the yojimbo draws his sword and slays him in one swift motion, demonstrating his loyalty to his suddenly dead lord.
But the scorpion courtier did not sacrifice himself just out of loyalty, because his lord did not command him to die. He did so in order to put the fear of god into the other courtiers of the Scorpion clan and the lengths they are willing to go. The courtier saw a moment in which to alter how the other clans view the Scorpion for generations made the decision and did not hesitate in his duty. His duty was to act as a courtier to aid in the Scorpion clan's diplomatic attentions, and did so in a spectacular way that no other clan could match. This being said, most samurai, however, would sacrifice their life for duty, for duty vital for a samurai. I mean, the word samurai means "to wait upon" or "to serve". Scorpions go one further and will sacrifice things for duty that other samurai would not without a moments hesitation. The bushido tenant chūgi (misrepresented in the book as "chugo") in Japanese literally means "loyalty" and "faithfulness", and is translated to mean both duty and loyalty in bushido.
If you read Way of the Crab, it talks about 3 tenants the Crab value most; Courage, Duty, and Honor. Yes obviously the Crab care about duty, no one would man the wall otherwise. The Crab were tasked with holding back the Shadowlands, and so they do. But Crab also care deeply about honor, and seppuku is a matter of honor. I'm certainly not saying they are seppuku happy or anything like that, but I would still say that it is an absolutely viable backstory fluff. Akodo's "leadership" says on the subject of honor "A true Samurai has only one judge of his honor, and that is himself. Decisions you make and how those decisions are carried out are a reflection of who you truly are. You cannot hide from yourself." Crab understand this all to well, and have much time to reflect upon it on the wall.
If a Crab samurai was given an outpost to that is was their duty to protect, and there was an overwhelming wave of Shadowlands creatures attacking it, the Crab samurai would fall back even though it means failing their duty. Hell, that is what the entire Hiruma family did. The crab are pragmatic and no nonsense. However, I can also see that self-same samurai going back to his lord and offering to commit seppuku for his failing. The lord would probably refuse and say there was no dishonor in his decision to turn his back on his duty, because Crab and pragmatism, but not necessarily. It takes courage to make the right decision, even failing your duty, and face the consequences. As Yakamo told O-Ushi in the Way of the Crab, "Courage is not just a word".
If I had to match each clan with the tenant of bushido they embody most, I would do it thusly. This is not to say that these tenant are not also upheld by other clans, all tenants of bushido are upheld by the clans, even if they have different interpretations of what that means (like Crab and Courtesy).
Jin (Compassion) -- Phoenix Yu (Courage) -- Crab Rei (Courtesy) -- Crane Chugo (Duty and Loyalty) -- Scorpion Gi (Honesty and Justice) -- Dragon Meyo (Honor) -- Lion Makoto (Sincerity) -- Unicorn
Wow. That ended up being longer than I expected.
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Post by cursedmonkey on Jan 7, 2018 17:32:18 GMT -8
Once again I am not sure what you are ranting against because I never argued that the Crab were dishonorable. What I brought foward was factual and not a matter of opinion. 'Honor' is an idea interpreted through the eyes of the different clans. The Empire is not homogeneous after all.
I don't get the need for this discussion anyway since, if I remember correctly, Kimi's crab's mother commited seppuku but her father was denied it and got executed.
Such an execution comes after a great crime, perhaps on the demand of an Emeral Magistrate.
The official great clan virtues are:
Crab - Duty
Crane - Courtesy
Dragon - Sincerity
Lion - Honor
Mantis - Courage
Phoenix - Honesty
Scorpion - Loyalty (a derivative of duty but still something different enough)
Unicorn - Compassion
Spider (if you play with them) - Strength
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 7, 2018 19:30:51 GMT -8
Once again I am not sure what you are ranting against because I never argued that the Crab were dishonorable. What I brought foward was factual and not a matter of opinion. 'Honor' is an idea interpreted through the eyes of the different clans. The Empire is not homogeneous after all. I don't get the need for this discussion anyway since, if I remember correctly, Kimi's crab's mother commited seppuku but her father was denied it and got executed. Such an execution comes after a great crime, perhaps on the demand of an Emeral Magistrate. The official great clan virtues are: Crab - Duty Crane - Courtesy Dragon - Sincerity Lion - Honor Mantis - Courage Phoenix - Honesty Scorpion - Loyalty (a derivative of duty but still something different enough) Unicorn - Compassion Spider (if you play with them) - Strength You know... saying "I am not sure what you are ranting against" and then continuing the argument is a little disingenuous. Now, that being said. I have literally read every single official word on this game that AEG ever printed. As such I feel I am in a good place to call you dead wrong. Phoenix are largely known as the compassionate clan, they do house the most pacifists in the empire afterall. Crab are the courageous clan Crane is courtesy Scorpion is duty Unicorn is honesty Lion is honor Dragon is sincerity Mantis is not a great clan, no matter what the story says, so they don't get a tenet. Same with Spider, and Strength is not a tenet of bushido anyway its a tenet of Shourido, which is just dumb. Seppuku is rare in general, and is definitely still so in the Crab(what with their need for members as illustrated by the 20 goblin winter), but is not unheard of at all. There are lots of official accounts of Crab seppuku. I give you Hida Toyo and Hida Yasushi as examples. I actually applaud Kimi, because a lot of clans' women would have committed jigai and not seppuku, but I can't see a Crab woman doing that. Also, its likely that someone ordered that her father be killed rather than allowed seppuku but because the new daimyo was a family friend he offered seppuku to her mother as a kindness. Same with making Kimi ronin, done because he couldn't bring himself to order the death of this girl he had known since she was a child. It sounds very samurai to me.
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tappy
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Post by tappy on Jan 7, 2018 19:42:06 GMT -8
Once again I am not sure what you are ranting against because I never argued that the Crab were dishonorable. What I brought foward was factual and not a matter of opinion and 'honor' is an idea interpreted through the eyes of the different clans. The Empire is not homogeneous after all. I don't get the need for this discussion anyway since, if I remember correctly, Kimi's crab's mother commited seppuku but her father was denied it and got executed. Such an execution comes after a great crime, perhaps on the demand of an Emeral Magistrate. The official great clan virtues are: Crab - Duty Crane - Courtesy Dragon - Sincerity Lion - Honor Mantis - Courage Phoenix - Honesty Scorpion - Loyalty (a derivative of duty but still something different enough) Unicorn - Compassion Spider (if you play with them) - Strength That is after the Minor clan alliance was brought together after the Scorpion clan coup. The current game is set before that, so is no Mantis great clan. Also, I am specifically talking about tenants of Bushido, which doesn't include a spit duty/loyalty or "strength" (also I loath the idea of the spider clan with every fiber of my being, but that is nether here nor there). I'm not saying that the Empire is homogenous in the slightest, I am specifically talking about the concept of honor as it applies to the Crab clan. As to ranting, I don't think I am ranting, I am putting a very fine point on something that is relevant to playing the game, and that is the importance of bushido and its tenants. Discussions like this are important, imo, to getting really interesting flavor out of the game. It is one of the reasons I wanted to be on the podcast in the first place. We are talking right now about the nature of what is possible in the game. You bring up some very good points about the nature of the Crab Clan's food security, relationship to other clans as well as how they feel about their their own manpower. But the conclusions are not as cut and dry as you think, and it is not the only way you could play this. Seppuku is not a punishment. It is something that a benevolent lord may allow someone to do in order to remove the stain of dishonor before they die. If the lord wanted to punish the samurai they would have the samurai executed (as Kimi's character's father was, he must have done something extra super horrible). Seppuku is very rare period, not just in the Crab clan, but everywhere in Rokugan; as it is done only for something that is bad enough that it will stain that samurai's family for all time. Kimi's character is actually lucky that her mother wasn't not forced to slash her child's wrists before her own seppuku, and whatever her father did, it must have been so horrific that people will be whispering about it behind her back for the rest of her life. As to the "trial of the cage" can you give me a citation for that? The only thing I can find like that is an old crab "cure" for PTSD which was locking someone up in an iron cage for 3 days. To my knowledge, the "regain your honor, not through seppuku, but you die anyway" availible to most Crab is to go "Looking for Hida", i.e. walking out into the shadowlands. I think that story was in "Bearers of Jade" where a Hiruma caught drinking, brawling and gambling was allowed to go look for Hida. I mostly played 1st edition, so it may be something that happened in later editions, but I don't know what it is. It feels kind of like saying "The Crab don't iaijutsu duel, they use tetsubo-suru contests." While it is true that the Crab value their samurai's lives too much to allow them to duel each other to the death and prefer to use Tetsubo-suru; that doesn't mean that they won't duel at all, or that some Crab are not iai specialists. One of my favorite characters of all time was a Crab duelist, who routinely dueled with Crane and Scorpion and won, much to everyone's shock. I personally LOVE playing weirdos (who would have guessed?), and so I see the need for there to be room for playing against the grain or having stories that are against the grain. That is what makes them notable, right? So even if the Crab are more inclined to allow someone to go search for Hida, maybe join a deathseeker like battalion, or do this cage trial thing; allowing one spouse to commit seppuku instead of those options AND THEN refusing the other spouse and executing him (thereby keeping the dishonor on the family; fuck your seppuku, mom) is INTERESTING. Interesting enough to color that character's interactions with all NPCs, perhaps, and maybe a reason why she is not on the carpenter wall. Simply handwaving that is must have been something outside the crab clan because "Crab don't do that" feels to be a big loss of an opportunity for character defining drama.
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tappy
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Post by tappy on Jan 7, 2018 19:46:29 GMT -8
Once again I am not sure what you are ranting against because I never argued that the Crab were dishonorable. What I brought foward was factual and not a matter of opinion. 'Honor' is an idea interpreted through the eyes of the different clans. The Empire is not homogeneous after all. I don't get the need for this discussion anyway since, if I remember correctly, Kimi's crab's mother commited seppuku but her father was denied it and got executed. Such an execution comes after a great crime, perhaps on the demand of an Emeral Magistrate. The official great clan virtues are: Crab - Duty Crane - Courtesy Dragon - Sincerity Lion - Honor Mantis - Courage Phoenix - Honesty Scorpion - Loyalty (a derivative of duty but still something different enough) Unicorn - Compassion Spider (if you play with them) - Strength You know... saying "I am not sure what you are ranting against" and then continuing the argument is a little disingenuous. Now, that being said. I have literally read every single official word on this game that AEG ever printed. As such I feel I am in a good place to call you dead wrong. Phoenix are largely known as the compassionate clan, they do house the most pacifists in the empire afterall. Crab are the courageous clan Crane is courtesy Scorpion is duty Unicorn is honesty Lion is honor Dragon is sincerity Mantis is not a great clan, no matter what the story says, so they don't get a tenet. Same with Spider, and Strength is not a tenet of bushido anyway its a tenet of Shourido, which is just dumb. Seppuku is rare in general, and is definitely still so in the Crab(what with their need for members as illustrated by the 20 goblin winter), but is not unheard of at all. There are lots of official accounts of Crab seppuku. I give you Hida Toyo and Hida Yasushi as examples. I actually applaud Kimi, because a lot of clans' women would have committed jigai and not seppuku, but I can't see a Crab woman doing that. Also, its likely that someone ordered that her father be killed rather than allowed seppuku but because the new daimyo was a family friend he offered seppuku to her mother as a kindness. Same with making Kimi ronin, done because he couldn't bring himself to order the death of this girl he had known since she was a child. It sounds very samurai to me. I have Dragon and Unicorn switched mostly because of the "justice" component of "Gi" and how that applies to the Kitsuki family of the Dragon. However, you can also make a very good and cromulent argument that the Unicorn are more about honesty, since the Dragon are all mysterious and hidden away in their mountains. And likewise, I think Kimi's character sounds cool with lots of crazy bullshit in her backstory that will make for a character with lots of motivation. Sounds legit.
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tappy
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Post by tappy on Jan 7, 2018 21:12:57 GMT -8
One of the best things about the new game is the eradication of a lot of the terribleness that happened as the game progressed. No Shadow, no Scorpion Clan coup, no Spider clan, no shourido, none of that bullshit. Hantei XXXVIII is the best Hantei. I always like the 1st edition fluff better than later editions, but the new fluff that is coming out of Fantasy Flight games is pretty goddamn great. I just wish their crunch was a 10th as bad ass as the fluff that is being written. Doji Hotaru (the new Crane Champion) is amazing and everything I want from a Crane Champion, while Shinjo Altansarnai is a fucking badass and SOOOOOO much better than Yokatsu, who just never fucking did anything. The only thing is that there is a little bit too much "push" in my opinion for things to happen in the fluff. Things as they are are enough to cause tension and manuvering and war between the clans... but it doesn't hurt.
I have some of the opening fiction for the card game on my compy, is there a way to post it here?
#teamhotaru #teamaltansarnai
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Post by Deleted on Jan 7, 2018 22:40:50 GMT -8
One of the best things about the new game is the eradication of a lot of the terribleness that happened as the game progressed. No Shadow, no Scorpion Clan coup, no Spider clan, no shourido, none of that bullshit. Hantei XXXVIII is the best Hantei. I always like the 1st edition fluff better than later editions, but the new fluff that is coming out of Fantasy Flight games is pretty goddamn great. I just wish their crunch was a 10th as bad ass as the fluff that is being written. Doji Hotaru (the new Crane Champion) is amazing and everything I want from a Crane Champion, while Shinjo Altansarnai is a fucking badass and SOOOOOO much better than Yokatsu, who just never fucking did anything. The only thing is that there is a little bit too much "push" in my opinion for things to happen in the fluff. Things as they are are enough to cause tension and manuvering and war between the clans... but it doesn't hurt. I have some of the opening fiction for the card game on my compy, is there a way to post it here? #teamhotaru #teamaltansarnai It’s available on the FFG website for anyone who wants it (if you are referring to what I think you are).
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Post by cursedmonkey on Jan 8, 2018 3:16:25 GMT -8
There is no discussion to be had anymore, for me anyways.
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Post by ayslyn on Jan 8, 2018 10:21:21 GMT -8
Now... This is entirely based on my highly suspect memory, so make of it what you will....
I do recall reading that seppuku in protest was rarer among the Crab than other clans. That the pragmatism of the clan made(?) it's samurai think twice as to whether their honor was really at stake, and worth taking a body off the Wall. Consequently, WHEN a Crab DID do so, it was often considered more.... meaningful (?).
I also want to say that I recall reading that they would often use the idea of seppuku in protest as a means of less than subtly course correcting their lords. That again because of that same pragmatism and need to man the Wall, that when a Crab offers to commit seppuku it could often shock their superior into rethinking their orders.
Again... Highly suspect memory.... I could very well be reading into something that I read a long time ago and seeing something that wasn't there, or conflating something wholly non-L5R with what I have read of L5R.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 8, 2018 10:42:06 GMT -8
Oh, and btw, its damn good to have you back man.
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