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Post by Kainguru on Dec 20, 2017 23:12:42 GMT -8
Ya see that’s what we didn’t get to see - the raged filled Luke of ROTJ. He was balanced in the force, he managed a trick Vader couldn’t - he channeled the dark side but remained light. He was supposed to be a new sort of Jedi, more akin Qui Gon than Obi Wan ... but we never got see it. Rather it didn’t come across in the film because ... poorly written, badly directed. Aaron
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2017 2:01:29 GMT -8
Saw the film last night and while it does have issues I have to say I really enjoyed it, far better than The Force Awakens. My biggest issue was how much they tried to cram into it, in addition to being long it felt long and there were too many sections that either needed to be cut or had been cut too much. I think the original trilogy works well because on many levels it's a simple story structure (which also helps with avoiding too many plot holes).
As for the Leia scene I wonder if that was meant to setup elements of the next movie prior to Carrie Fisher's death. They'd always said the Episode IX was meant to have more of a focus on her and I suspect she'd have ended up providing Rey some level of training. Just because she wasn't a Jedi doesn't mean she hadn't had some training.
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 21, 2017 2:34:30 GMT -8
The canon novel Bloodlines answer that - she thought about it but chose to be a politician instead (not mention her unconvential relationship with Han). She did recognise Kylo’s potential early on, which is why she asked Luke to train him. In Bloodlines Leia is pretty much damaged goods because of her secret, Anakin is her father and Anakin/Vader tortured her in EP 4. She really only comes to terms with it after the secret is out - Luke never had that trauma to deal with (the torture). Aaron
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Dec 21, 2017 5:54:30 GMT -8
She does use the force passively, however. It's still canon that she used the Force to give her the strength to strangle Jabba with the chain and she uses the force quite a bit in her comic and novel.
Plus wasn't the whole point of "The Force Awakens" that there was "an awakening"? Leia might have been a politician at heart but she's been feeling people dying all over the place with the Force lately and now she's pulling herself out of space. I'm on board with it if it means Rey gets some Grey Jedi training.
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 21, 2017 6:53:40 GMT -8
Grey Jedi. There is a bone of contention - hotly expected but not delivered, they still languish in Legends awaiting a new canon makeover. This was probably the snidest misdirect of all leading upto the movie release. That’s probably the biggest problem with TLJ, the very snide way the fan base was (in retrospect) trolled before release. That attitude really worked well for Marvel comics ... not it didn’t, the fan base turned toxic (cause if you call someone shit for long enough they’ll eventually figure they’ve nothing to lose by living down to expectations) and Alonso lost his job - he trolled the fan base and lost. It’s not smart or clever, it’s bad business and nothing is ‘too big to fail’ Aaron
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Dec 21, 2017 10:00:15 GMT -8
Wait what? I don't understand what you're talking about. We have a conflicted Rey who is loosely a Grey Jedi. She's mad, impulsive, and uses the Force for all the wrong reasons while being unclouded by the Jedi dogma. In this very movie we saw the Jedi as we know it pass away with Luke's death. Whether Rey is trained by a Luke ghost or Leia like I mentioned it won't be the same as it was in the past. She won't have an apprenticeship, she won't have any trials to pass, and none of the Jedi restrictions will be on her shoulders.
Just my two cents.
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Post by Kainguru on Dec 21, 2017 15:20:30 GMT -8
They teased The Grey Jedi for the last year . . . especially with Rebels, but failed to properly deliver. If anyone were a Grey Jedi it was Luke precisely because of RoTJ. He went Darkside to defeat Vader, but stayed balanced . . . in that he was a greater force user than his father. I've always liked the explanation that Luke's background as a simple moisture farmer was his greatest strength . . . he was uncomplicated and thus could draw on the darkside but remain focused/true to himself. Anakin's past as a slave bought too much baggage with it, so he succumbed wholly to the darkside and was unable to come back (until the end of RoTJ). Then there is the whole Unified Force vs The Living Force left languishing in the Legends canon . . . it was the canon that that was the key difference of opinion between Gui Gon and the High Council, It's why he was a bit of a renegade and prone to upsetting the High Council on a regular basis, he was following a different understanding of The Force which ultimately leads him to discovering 'preservation of individual identity within the force after death' (of which we see greater extrapolation with Yoda's journey in the final season of The Clone Wars). By canon there are, now, only 4 force Ghosts in the whole Galaxy (and one Force Presence, as Gui Gon never completed his lessons so is unable to manifest fully like Yoda, Obi Wan and Anakin - and if Anakin gets a free pass then, by rights, so should Luke). The biggest tease was The Bendu in Rebels . . . but, like I said, Rian Johnson is so determined to burn the past to build the future he's torching the foundations of the franchise. He should have been building on these things to bring about the end point he wanted rather than just tossing them to one side. It's very similar to what has happened to the Dune franchise; we got to the end of the story arc due to the diligence of Herbert's son and a past authorial collaborator reconstructing Herbert's intended conclusion from the very extensive collection of plot guides he left behind (why did we wait so long? because they didn't find the box of with the draft notes for his final book - which became two books once completed - until years after he had died). After that they then went about deconstructing everything that had gone before and trying to rewrite the original trilogy with a different mindset at odds with the original work (cf Paul of Dune etc). Those books never really worked and, for many, just don't count. Christopher Tolkien did the same with Middle Earth: he wrote many books, expanded the Lore of Middle Earth but, ultimately, only the hardcore fans have ever read those books. those that have either love them and buy into 'the revised history' or hate them and consider them 'non-canonical heresy'. End result? a fractured fanbase with diminishing returns on fan investment as the 'loyal' fanbase becomes smaller and smaller over time. Once you rely on a fanbase to guarantee success you have to tread carefully or risk disenfranchising the very financial underpinning of your IP. Once that happens the (hoped for) new fans are never enough to generate new revenue, mainly because the disenfranchised fans cease to promote the fandom. It's like trying to recruit for an army and having half your recruiters turn and start saying 'listen, it's too late for me I'm in this for life but I hear if you go join the other side they have ice cream'. Another example - DnD 4e, the backlash nearly killed WoTC but Piazo did REALLY well out of it. A divisive Star Wars isn't clever, smart or even post-modern. We survived the prequels ... wasn't that punishment enough? To be fair if the prequels had been edited better they would have worked ie: if the same talent that edited the original Star Wars were allowed to keep George on track and grounded (because there is a good story in there) ie: George's ex-wife, who deserves a bigger credit then she was given Aaron
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Post by akavidar on Dec 21, 2017 16:02:19 GMT -8
One really great thing about this movie? YODA. WAS. A. MUPPET! Not some bad CGI. It was interesting that Yoda had to show up because Luke couldn't set a tree on fire.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 21, 2017 17:31:43 GMT -8
One really great thing about this movie? YODA. WAS. A. MUPPET! Not some bad CGI. It was interesting that Yoda had to show up because Luke couldn't set a tree on fire. I read an article that stated it was important for Yoda to be the one to burn the tree down. Yoda's arguably the most important Jedi, so him being the one to burn everything down meant it was the right thing to do. I buy that.
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Post by akavidar on Dec 21, 2017 20:20:36 GMT -8
It was interesting that Yoda had to show up because Luke couldn't set a tree on fire. I read an article that stated it was important for Yoda to be the one to burn the tree down. Yoda's arguably the most important Jedi, so him being the one to burn everything down meant it was the right thing to do. I buy that. I can see that, but it still remains that Luke went to the tree with a torch with the intention to burn it, and didn't.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Dec 21, 2017 20:29:01 GMT -8
I read an article that stated it was important for Yoda to be the one to burn the tree down. Yoda's arguably the most important Jedi, so him being the one to burn everything down meant it was the right thing to do. I buy that. I can see that, but it still remains that Luke went to the tree with a torch with the intention to burn it, and didn't. Reinforcing the fact that Luke is not some infallible god-being.
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Post by akavidar on Dec 21, 2017 20:48:59 GMT -8
I have realized that I have bagged on the Last Jedi without saying what I liked about it.
First was Admiral Holdo, played by Laura Dern, after spending some time wondering if she had a plan, turns out she did. Too bad it didn't work out, but the shining moment was when Rose says "She's running away." and Poe says "No, she isn't." Then the jump to lightspeed, and then light and the silence. That was well done.
Second was the fight scene with Ren and Stimpy... I mean Ren and Rae, after Snoke's unfortunate lightsaber accident. Beautiful choreography, I do love my Jedi fight scenes.
Third .... well the little kid with the broomsaber was cool.
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Post by chronovore on Dec 22, 2017 5:31:43 GMT -8
I can see that, but it still remains that Luke went to the tree with a torch with the intention to burn it, and didn't. Reinforcing the fact that Luke is not some infallible god-being. Plus, according to Yoda, failure is the greatest teacher. So Luke will learn more by failing to burn the tree. He'll eventually learn that Rey took the darned books.
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Dec 22, 2017 6:03:28 GMT -8
I can't wait for sassy Force ghost Luke to say something like "Of course you took the books..."
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Post by akavidar on Dec 22, 2017 17:01:14 GMT -8
Reinforcing the fact that Luke is not some infallible god-being. Plus, according to Yoda, failure is the greatest teacher. So Luke will learn more by failing to burn the tree. He'll eventually learn that Rey took the darned books. If failure is the greatest teacher, then clearly Luke Skywalker should be the bestest Jedi, ever.
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