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Post by flyingjackelope on Jan 5, 2018 15:35:22 GMT -8
I honestly don't care if you guys mispronounce the words. I mispronounce words in all languages all the time, but if you guys feel the need to pronounce things correctly, here's a very basic guide. The key is to pronounce the vowels like you would in Spanish and the consonants like you would in English.
a - ah (like the scream you make when surprised or scared) e - eh (like the stereotypical Canadian, eh but cut right before it becomes ey) i - EE (as you would pronounce the 'ee' in sweet) o - oh (English 'o' tends to be an 'o' sound followed by a slight 'oo' sound, so you want to make sure to not let your lips purse at the end) u - oo (This is the sounds you make when something is spooky, also the 'oo' in spooky)
The only other thing that may come up are double vowels(sometimes denoted with a line above the vowel. In English, this changes the sounds of the vowel. But in Japanese, the just means you extend the vowel sound. E.g. if every vowel get one beat (since most of you are musically inclined) an extended vowel would get two.
Once you get the pronunciation of the vowels, you shouldn't have many problem with pronouncing Japanese words written with Roman letters (a.k.a. rōmaji).
I hope this doesn't come off as me telling you how to do things. I didn't care about the mispronunciations during the original L5R and I don't care now, but the chat seems to be a bit vocal about it, so instead of correcting every word as it comes, here's how I learned to pronounce things when I took my ONE class of Japanese. I am by no means an expert. Just a fan who had a bit too much time this Friday afternoon.
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 5, 2018 15:46:43 GMT -8
I am in the same boat here. I also had ONE class of Japanese. The only thing that really bugs me with pronunciation is sake. For some reason that really grates on me. The L5R Family names kinda bug me too, but that's only because I've heard them a certain way for 25 years.
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Post by flyingjackelope on Jan 5, 2018 15:51:34 GMT -8
I can understand that it bugs people, but what is going to bug me is the chat correcting the pronunciation of every word. The original l5r didn't have an active audience, so it wasn't a problem. I'm hoping it won't be here because I'd rather everyone just drop the Japanese altogether and speak English than be corrected over text how to pronounce a word whenever it's mispronounced.
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Post by Starteller on Jan 5, 2018 15:54:55 GMT -8
More fun Player speak like mister Miyagi. In Japanese saying "You" "Anata" is mostly impolite because that mean you don't know or forgot the person name Common honorificsSan
Endō-san tanjōbi omedetō (Happy birthday, Mr. Endō) San (さん) (sometimes pronounced han (はん) in Kansai dialect) is the most commonplace honorific and is a title of respect typically used between equals of any age. Although the closest analog in English are the honorifics "Mr.", "Miss", "Ms.", or "Mrs.", -san SamaOkyaku-sama Sama (様【さま】) is a more respectful version for people of a higher rank than oneself, toward one's guests or customers Senpai (先輩【せんぱい】) is used to address or refer to one's elder colleagues in a school, dojo, or sports club. Royal and official titlesHeika (陛下) is used for sovereign royalty, similar to "Majesty" in English. For example, Tennō Heika (天皇陛下) means "His Majesty the Emperor", which is used to address the Emperor of Japan, and Kōgō Heika (皇后陛下) means "Her Majesty the Empress", used to address the Empress. Kokuō Heika (国王陛下) means "His Majesty the King", and Joō Heika (女王陛下) means "Her Majesty the Queen". Heika by itself can be used as a direct term of address, equivalent to "Your Majesty". Denka (殿下) is used for non-sovereign royalty, similar to "Highness". For example, Kako Naishinnō Denka (佳子内親王殿下, "Her Imperial Highness, Princess Kako of Akishino"), and Suwēden Ōkoku, Vikutoria Ōtaishi Denka (スウェーデン王国ヴィクトリア王太子殿下, "Her Royal Highness, Crown Princess Victoria of the Kingdom of Sweden"). Denka can be used by itself, equivalent to "Your Highness." Hidenka (妃殿下) is used for addressing the consort of a prince, and is used the same way as the other royal titles. Kakka (閣下) means "Excellency", and is used for heads of state (except those addressed by Heika or Denka), heads of government including the Prime Minister of Japan, cabinet ministers, ambassadors and other high-rank officials such as the Secretary-General of the United Nations, or for generals in an army. It can be used by itself or attached to a specific title like other royal titles. Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_honorificswww.sengokudaimyo.com/miscellany/address.html
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Post by Starteller on Jan 5, 2018 16:16:53 GMT -8
Example
"I am Samurai Ranma Saotome." "Welcome Saotome-sama. I am the dojo master Ryoga Ikaga" (older man) "Good day to you, Ikaga-Senpai"
And all the time they both use "Saotome-sama" or "Ikaga-Senpai" instead of you or the first name if there is 2 family members like 2 old man from Ikaga family "Ryoga-Senpai" instead
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d47
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Post by d47 on Jan 8, 2018 12:02:16 GMT -8
I was about to propose a pronunciation guide, so thanks, flyingjackelope . I do believe, though, that it is better to not think of Rokugon as simply fantasy Japan. I lived in Japan 15 years and make my living as a Japanese translator. I would never be able to listen to the L5R AP if I dissected every instance when pronunciation and cultural references do not conform to what I know of the language and historical society of Japan. Actually, it is the creation of the HJRPG version of Rokugon that resembles but is NOT Japan that made the previous L5R AP interesting. This includes pronunciation. So, GM and players, now that you are under the microscope of live streaming and chatting, please don't let that straitjacket you. (Personally, I would prefer that the players NOT monitor the chat constantly. It clearly distracts the person who is doing that and interrupts the story flow. Maybe you could do a chat check at the beginning, middle and end of each AP.)
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d47
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Post by d47 on Jan 8, 2018 12:05:44 GMT -8
Having said what I just said, "Isanko" did sound awfully funny!
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Post by flyingjackelope on Jan 8, 2018 13:17:58 GMT -8
Well I'm glad someone with more experience than me chimed in. I thought about pinging Hyvemind or Chronovore to either confirm or destroy my guide, but didn't want to bother anyone. I just want to reiterate a point from my original post. This is their game and I'll enjoy it while they're enjoying it. For me, that's the most important dynamic for the APs. The guide was not in response to the hosts' "mispronunciations", but in response to the many "corrections" from the chat during session 0. You're more experienced with the language, so I defer to you on whether or not I'm properly describing how to pronounce Japanese words. As for how to pronounce Japanese (I'm assuming) borrowed turned common Rokugani words, I won't get into that argument. I was assuming everyone was trying to pronounce them in Japanese, so that's the guide I made. If AEG, or FFG, decided to pronounce words differently, I wouldn't know. If the hosts decide to pronounce "sayonara" like John Wayne, I'm fine with that. They want to pronounce it sa"kee" instead of sa"keh" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ My enjoyment has and will always be the story they weave as a group. I'm glad the groups returned to Rokugan and I can't wait to see what travesty awaits them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2018 16:05:13 GMT -8
Example "I am Samurai Ranma Saotome." "Welcome Saotome-sama. I am the dojo master Ryoga Ikaga" (older man) "Good day to you, Ikaga-Senpai" And all the time they both use "Saotome-sama" or "Ikaga-Senpai" instead of you or the first name if there is 2 family members like 2 old man from Ikaga family "Ryoga-Senpai" instead The old L5R GM Survival Guide covered a lot of this. That book is amazing for the amount of non-mechanics it covers, down to food and housing, etc. As well as an illustration of actually donning armor. They cover that using the wrong honorific is rude. They cover the etiquette of not using a person's given name until you've been properly introduced is rude, as is referring to them just as 'samurai' or 'samurai-san'. Even covers weird etiquette like when you have a Matsu who trained at the Kakita Academy and such. Anyway, a great book all in all. /ramble
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jan 8, 2018 19:26:24 GMT -8
As usual I have been chastised into oblivion. I'll likely not even watch the stream and just listen to it after the fact so I don't offend people with my knowledge of the game.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Jan 8, 2018 20:21:34 GMT -8
With all due respect, chronovore would be the better one to ping since my Japanese is total crap.
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Post by chronovore on Jan 8, 2018 23:28:11 GMT -8
With all due respect, chronovore would be the better one to ping since my Japanese is total crap. In such a nuanced language, I think of my ability as "caveman level," so when I tell my American friends what my Japanese sentence meant, I intersperse "onk" and "bam-bam" and various growls so my context is more immersive for my expatriate guests here in Japan. The levels of politeness won't neatly translate into American English. Japan uses several entirely separate verbs for polite interaction. That "IRRASHAIMASE!" shouted at Japanese restaurant patrons? That's a polite verb. Separate verbs. flyingjackelope is correct on all that stuff about vowels. The only other things to guard against are soft Rs and syllabic emphasis. The Rs in Japanese can be more easily pronounced as Ls, though they're more between L and D (watch where your tongue sits when forming the sound). The emphasis is just learning not to say things like SU-shi or ten-PUR-a, as it's essentially flat emphasis: su-shi, ten-pu-ra. But as everyone else here has noted, Rokugan is not Japan, and the key point is to have fun, so ignore anything which doesn't suit your enjoyment of your gaming time.
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Post by chronovore on Jan 8, 2018 23:29:15 GMT -8
Also, HyveMynd may be fibbing about his Japanese ability. We've met twice and did not speak any Japanese at each other, only Olde Geekish and a smattering of High Gygaxian.
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Post by flyingjackelope on Jan 9, 2018 9:24:52 GMT -8
flyingjackelope is correct on all that stuff about vowels. The only other things to guard against are soft Rs and syllabic emphasis. The Rs in Japanese can be more easily pronounced as Ls, though they're more between L and D (watch where your tongue sits when forming the sound). The emphasis is just learning not to say things like SU-shi or ten-PUR-a, as it's essentially flat emphasis: su-shi, ten-pu-ra. *phew* glad I got that right. The benefit of speaking Spanish when learning Japanese helped with 'R' sounds too. In the Spanish language you roll your Rs, but there's a difference 'r' and 'rr'. The 'r' is a single flick of the tongue on the roof of your mouth behind the teeth. In comparison, 'rr' is a continuous trill. Of course, when I tried explaining this to my Japanese professor, she had no idea what I was talking about. *sigh*
This has been another short language lesson from flyingjackelope.
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Post by chronovore on Jan 9, 2018 15:26:06 GMT -8
Yeah, I thought about referring to the Spanish R pronunciation, but thought that might confuse things. As a West Coast American, we encounter Spanish language in many of our place names, street names, and daily food. So we gringos are just as frequently mispronouncing the R there as we do in Japanese.
I believe the reason for the romanization to R instead of L is due to Portuguese. I am guessing that Portuguese has a similarly trilled R. The Portuguese were some of the first visitors to influence Japan. The Dutch were earlier, but isolated and, thus, less influential.
Note that it is early in the morning here and I do not care to go ahead and do a history lesson in Wikipedia to confirm any of my facts before posting . This is just what I’m remembering offhand. I may be wrong.
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