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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2018 15:51:59 GMT -8
John Wick posted this today, and I thought I'd share: youtu.be/T7ZXGZeqai4Short form: 1. Honor is based on five points that the player tells the GM the character values. The GM might help them steer it a bit, but this will decide honor gains/ losses 2. Katanas kill on impact. No The Mountain Does Not Move versus katana. If you can dodge/parry/get out of the way, you're okay. If you're hit, you can spend a void to not die, but you will be seriously mangled. This is based on the 'language' of Kurosawa movies, the way a lightsaber is in Star Wars. 3. Give your players temporary Void Points. You may recognize this from Savage Worlds with bennies. Anyway, a good ten minute video. His other videos are pretty good as well, I think. And as he says, he does love to see and hear what people have done with his systems.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Feb 27, 2018 5:13:41 GMT -8
I dunno, man. Making katanas insta-kill feels a bit much. What about a character's chosen weapon being insta-kill? So a Moto's scimitar, a Hida's tetsubo, a Tsuruchi's Yumi, etc, etc, would all be the same, otherwise what's the point in using anything else?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2018 15:05:46 GMT -8
Okay, on katanas being insta-kill:
Look at the source material. Katanas ARE instakill. It's a weapon that is tested out by cutting through four prisoners. No one looks at Star Wars and says "Why wouldn't someone use a lightsaber? It cuts through doors AND flesh"
Thematically, katanas should be the go-to weapon against humanoids except in special circumstances. That's one reason that they suggest docking people a point of Kenjutsu in the GM Survival Guide when they use a no-dachi - specifically because 90% of your training is specifically in using a katana.
It's only insta-kill against humanoids. NOT against ogres, oni, Shadowlands creatures, or schools who specialize in parrying (the Unicorn) or evading (the Scorpion).
And the Hida's tetsubo IGNORES humanoid armor - that's a pretty hefty advantage that anyone can use. It's such a good advantage, it was equal to a Rank 1 technique (the Akodo school in 1e). The Tsuruchi's yumi? Again, going by the rules written for the edition I play, at rank 2, Wasp archers no longer ROLL TO HIT.
On Moto scimitars? Looking at Way of the Unicorn and basing it on longswords -- they give -5 to init, does 1k4 damage (requires a 3 Str and Stamina to even wield, so you're looking at 4k4 damage) AND ignores armor.
I know other editions modify these things, of course. Again, going back to source material (Kurosawa films, specifically), a katana is a life ender. Samurai in L5R aren't free with dueling because they're gambling expensive property that doesn't belong to them (betting their own lives). You're basically going out and being trusted to drive your boss' Lambo, and woe be it if you damage it without permission.
YMMV
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2018 15:11:03 GMT -8
And, again, it's just a good discussion. I can promise you that it's rare that two tables play L5R the same way. I think the discussion is just that - you're not apt to change anyone's opinion. But adding the wound ranks into L5R was something that at the time people in charge that they 'needed'. A system is too weird without hit points (at the time). It's also why they created spell lists. Originally the magic system was based on Sense/Commune rolls and roleplaying.
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Post by akavidar on Feb 27, 2018 16:32:18 GMT -8
If John Wick is basing L5R on Kurosawa then a Katana should kill with 1 hit, in a Kurosawa movie everybody goes down on the first hit. Some live, but they don't get up to fight some more. I will have to watch some more of those. edit (both John Wick videos, and Kurosawa movies.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2018 17:24:51 GMT -8
If John Wick is basing L5R on Kurosawa then a Katana should kill with 1 hit, in a Kurosawa movie everybody goes down on the first hit. Some live, but they don't get up to fight some more. I will have to watch some more of those. edit (both John Wick videos, and Kurosawa movies.) The videos are interesting. He put up a review of TORG, and he has rules for a review: he will only review something he paid his own money for; he will only review a product he actually likes; and he will use E-prime, meaning it cuts out any version of 'to be' (i.e. 'this mechanic is wonky' etc) I highly like his video on Santa Vaca, his take on d20, where he removes the D20. The challenge was to basically tweak d20, and the one rule is he can't change anything that is on the character sheet. You keep your ACs and difficulties, but every +1 you have (from Strength, etc) gives you a d6. Anyway, it's an interesting thought experiment I thought. /DerailOff
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Mar 1, 2018 0:13:26 GMT -8
Okay, on katanas being insta-kill: Look at the source material. Katanas ARE instakill. It's a weapon that is tested out by cutting through four prisoners. No one looks at Star Wars and says "Why wouldn't someone use a lightsaber? It cuts through doors AND flesh" Thematically, katanas should be the go-to weapon against humanoids except in special circumstances. That's one reason that they suggest docking people a point of Kenjutsu in the GM Survival Guide when they use a no-dachi - specifically because 90% of your training is specifically in using a katana. It's only insta-kill against humanoids. NOT against ogres, oni, Shadowlands creatures, or schools who specialize in parrying (the Unicorn) or evading (the Scorpion). And the Hida's tetsubo IGNORES humanoid armor - that's a pretty hefty advantage that anyone can use. It's such a good advantage, it was equal to a Rank 1 technique (the Akodo school in 1e). The Tsuruchi's yumi? Again, going by the rules written for the edition I play, at rank 2, Wasp archers no longer ROLL TO HIT. On Moto scimitars? Looking at Way of the Unicorn and basing it on longswords -- they give -5 to init, does 1k4 damage (requires a 3 Str and Stamina to even wield, so you're looking at 4k4 damage) AND ignores armor. I know other editions modify these things, of course. Again, going back to source material (Kurosawa films, specifically), a katana is a life ender. Samurai in L5R aren't free with dueling because they're gambling expensive property that doesn't belong to them (betting their own lives). You're basically going out and being trusted to drive your boss' Lambo, and woe be it if you damage it without permission. YMMV Woah there, fella. Putting stuff in all caps and patronising me isn’t really the way to make your point with me. I’ve been playing L5R since 1st edition as well. Any eggs there for my Granny as well? How you play L5R is up to you, but in my experience, players don’t like to be dictated to, especially about their character choices, even in a very rigid social structure like L5R. Sure, there are those who will always take the optimal choice, but I’ve found that players want to be individuals. Forcing them to pick certain weapons is a step too far for me, and that’s essentially what you’re saying. And yes, before you patronise me a bit further, I understand the significance of the Dai-Sho in a samurai culture, or a samurai-emulating culture like Rokugan. Personally, in order to get that feel of cutting down scores of foes like a badass, I created my own minion rules (which as it turned out are quite similar to the way FFG do it in their NDS games) which work for me. As ever, happy to be wrong about the point you’re making.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2018 9:32:29 GMT -8
Apologies. I didn't mean to offend you, and the emphasis was not intended as a shout. You are absolutely right. As I said previously, things will absolutely vary from table to table, player to player and GM to GM. My responses on the tetsubo and scimitar were responses to your comment that 'why use anything other than the katana?' Again, my apologies. I really didn't intend to start what came off as an attack. I admit, it was a 'Well, actually...' moment of being excited for conversation Some tables and some players will feel that these optional rules (which they absolutely are optional rules, whether they come from John Wick's own table or the GM survival guide) are too far, or read too much into rules that are not in the RAW of the 1e book. And you're right about players taking choices that are meta choices (please read that as a neutral and not loaded tone) based on their characters - as is, the game I'm prepping right now has a Bayushi, trained by the Kitsuki, who has bare minimum kenjutsu or combat skills. He's a self-defense grappler, who's first instinct is duck and cover and to retreat. Whereas another player at my table who likes to max out dueling skills and stats and combat skills in general. Again, my apologies, and I would absolutely love to hear your minion rules to see about lifting them. Currently, my game is shaping up to be between the Dragon and Phoenix lands with bandits and Yobanjin raiders... and only three players. Please and thank you. And again, all apologies for tone previously.
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Post by SirGuido on Mar 2, 2018 16:49:34 GMT -8
I have to be honest and say that in general I dislike John Wick's gaming philosophies. Katana instakill is overkill for sure. I do however like the idea of it doing extra damage against an unarmored opponent.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2018 12:03:17 GMT -8
I do think that, again For Certain Tables and Certain Players, having katanas be insta-kill puts a 'speed bump' on certain players. Here's the thing - that mechanic, if you use it specifically, takes the Crane from the joke they seem to be to most players (especially with a lot of homosexual innuendos thrown around) and put the Crane into an absolute threat that they are in the game's fiction.
The Crane specifically specialize in backing you into a position where you challenge their honor. By bushido, the courtier gets their yojimbo to step in, and you have a dead duelist. That is specifically how the Crane have always been written.
Now, on objecting to his gaming philosophies, that's a fair point. But, when the theory is 'This is the cinematic reality I personally like to emulate', I can get it. No one talks about the viability of just loading up on slugthrowers and greasing wizards in Harry Potter; that's just not something that fits that vibe.
Sorry for the ramble. TLDR - if we agreed with everyone's gaming philosophies, we might miss out on some awesome games.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Mar 6, 2018 6:27:06 GMT -8
My own take on mobs/minions in L5R is as follows: A minion has 10 wounds, an armour TN of 10 and a base weapon skill/damage of 2K2. Each additional minion in the mob adds a rolled die to the mobs combat pool, so 2 minions have a base weapon skill/damage of 3K2, 3 minions have 4K2, etc, etc. Wounds inflicted on a minion roll over to the next minion, so basically every 10 wounds inflicted by a PC kills a minion and thus reduces the mob's combat weapon skill/damage accordingly. For me, this gives the jidaigeki feel of the protagonists cutting their way through hordes of faceless foes on their way to confronting more challenging antagonists (who are created in a smilar vein as the PC's, or lifted shamelessly from sourcebooks), while still offering a chance of the PC's being wounded in the combat. Basically, I came up with this because of my dissatisfaction with the mass combat rules. While L5R is one of the few rulesets in which I can improvise off the cuff, I wanted to give my players a feel of the rough-and-tumble scrapping on the battlefield, instead of the mini-duels and one-to-one combats the game talks about. This isn't quite the one-hit katana mentioned above. If that's the way you and your group want to go, then fair play to you. I feel the PC's may need a few back-up characters on stand-by though......
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2018 16:13:42 GMT -8
On the side note of backup characters... Wick posted his ideas for the Flux. It's a little hard to explain because it's not quite reality hopping as much as it's my understanding of the Eternal Champion of Michael Moorcock. Each of your characters is a facet of this One True Hero. Anyway, as far as using it for L5R, I'm looking at using it for PCs to tap into a previous character/life they had. It's not too dissimilar to the Kitsu soden-senzo ability, but doesn't require tapping into actual full on ancestors as much as tapping into their History ability, for example. I really do like your minion rules. If I remember right, that's about how 1e 7th Sea did it, and it's sooo much better than rolling infinite times to try to provide drama to the players. My question is: do you think it would work better using the (2k2) base damage, or do something like 7th Sea did where a brute squad equipped with sabers did 3 wounds per mob, so a squad of 4 does 12 on a successful hit? What are your thoughts of having static numbers versus possibly 'swingy' numbers?
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Post by yojimbohawkins on Mar 7, 2018 6:24:30 GMT -8
On the side note of backup characters... Wick posted his ideas for the Flux. It's a little hard to explain because it's not quite reality hopping as much as it's my understanding of the Eternal Champion of Michael Moorcock. Each of your characters is a facet of this One True Hero. Anyway, as far as using it for L5R, I'm looking at using it for PCs to tap into a previous character/life they had. It's not too dissimilar to the Kitsu soden-senzo ability, but doesn't require tapping into actual full on ancestors as much as tapping into their History ability, for example. I really do like your minion rules. If I remember right, that's about how 1e 7th Sea did it, and it's sooo much better than rolling infinite times to try to provide drama to the players. My question is: do you think it would work better using the (2k2) base damage, or do something like 7th Sea did where a brute squad equipped with sabers did 3 wounds per mob, so a squad of 4 does 12 on a successful hit? What are your thoughts of having static numbers versus possibly 'swingy' numbers? It'd be worth trying it out. I've experimented with making mobs tougher, e.g. a Hida mob is 'wearing' heavy armour, so they get a couple of points of soak per minion, or more deadly, e.g. the same Hida mob is 'wielding' tetsubo, so they're keeping 3 dice for damage (which was a bit too effective, as it turned out). I feel static numbers might either piss off the PC's (it doesn't have the randomness of a 'full' combat) or lead certain players to meta-game it a bit ("I know I'll only take this much damage if I get hit, so I can do that first"). I might play-test it and see. I like the idea of tapping into past incarnations. It fits nicely with the Celestial Wheel concept of reincarnation and improving your karma in the next life. I usually have to remind players that their ancestors can 'see' them from the afterlife and they should be honouring them with their actions as well as their prayers at their ancestral shrine, depending on their Clan of course.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 7, 2018 10:02:45 GMT -8
The short version of the Flux Wick talked about on the video would work like this: You have your first character sheet in a binder. Then each successive character would go on top of that. So, example, bottom layer is a Hida bushi. He dies, replacement is a Crane courtier. To tap into the previous skills or abilities, you'd roll Void at a 5 TN. Succeed? You can use that ability, maybe just for the scene or session. Fail? Well... that's when Reality takes an interest in you. For his Flux idea originally, Reality tries to actively kill you that session.
It's an interesting idea I think, especially for a setting that is about respecting ancestors. Everyone has ancestors, it's just how much of a kharmic tie you might have.
If I were to use it, and I might still, I might increase the disad Forsaken to a higher cost because of the fact you do not have ancestors who acknowledge you. Who knows. A WIP definitely, but I like the minion idea oodles.
And also: I like having the ancestors require devotion shown to them. Maybe not all the time but enough it has effects. In the canon, you had the Crane Civil War start because Daidoji Uji had a vision of his ancestor telling him to attack the Lion, despite being commanded not to. You had Shiba Aikune's inability to hear his ancestors be part of a plot by Iuchiban to return and get Isawa's Last Wish...
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