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Post by RudeAlert on Mar 11, 2018 18:08:41 GMT -8
Soooooo, you guys are still in the process of playing the fourth session as I write this and I can't help but get a certain... "vibe?" from this campaign regarding the functionality of the system. So I just figured I'd throw this out there just for the hell of it. Have you Stu Venable perhaps, maybe, possibly considered switching from the Beta edition to the tried-and-tested 4th edition, maybe, just perhaps, you know, maybe? This every-changing and oh-so-elegantly crafted Beta seems to be causing more trouble than it's worth, and the old 4th edition served you so well in the past. Sooooooo... you know... just a though. Also, just remember how awesome the duels were back in the original Inukai game!
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Post by Stu Venable on Mar 11, 2018 20:09:43 GMT -8
We had a discussion about this very thing right after Session 4 ended.
There’s only one more session before the start of the Renaissance Faire, so we’ll stick with it then.
We’ll talk about it during Faire, but one of the options on the table is going to 4th ed.
I don’t mind lots of dice rolls for an Iujitsu Duel, as I think that adds to the tension of the event. But there was no tension in this fight. To be fair, once we know the rules better, that sense of tension might return.
One of the changes I don’t like in the FFG version is dropping the attributes from the rings. Those attirbutes give the GM very concrete things upon which to call for dice rolls. As it is now, I have a cheatsheet of rings and their descriptive adjectives. That’s what I use to determine the ring.
But I can live with that.
The biggest stumbling block for me has been the skill list. The skill list is extremely limited and vague, and it seems to be built from the assumption of one possible style of play.
The conflict mechanic (which is the mechanic by which you’re supposed to resolve all conflicts — be they combat, social or otherwise) has enumerable exceptions and special rules, and many require multiple “prep” rolls before you get to conflict resolution.
I have no doubt that, in its final form, the rules will be much clearer and better organized. Of all the criticisms I have of the FFG Star Wars line, the books are a master work of organization. I *never* had problems figuring out how to do stuff in FFGSW.
What we’ll do with the continuation after the 5th session is still very much up in the air. I would *like* to continue using the Beta rules, but it’s cumbersome to flip between the main book and the beta revisions (to make sure the rules in the main book haven’t changed). Additionally, the beta rules, as written, are, in my opinion, overly complex.
I’m a big fan of quick combats, and this version (yeah, I know, it’s only a beta) doesn’t seem to support that. In 4th, many combats are resolved (or at least everyone knows what’s going to happen) in a couple rounds.
And while FFG combats probably only take a few rounds as well, you’re rolling a lot more dice pools to get to the conclusion.
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Post by SirGuido on Mar 12, 2018 8:00:22 GMT -8
We had a discussion about this very thing right after Session 4 ended. There’s only one more session before the start of the Renaissance Faire, so we’ll stick with it then. We’ll talk about it during Faire, but one of the options on the table is going to 4th ed. I don’t mind lots of dice rolls for an Iujitsu Duel, as I think that adds to the tension of the event. But there was no tension in this fight. To be fair, once we know the rules better, that sense of tension might return. One of the changes I don’t like in the FFG version is dropping the attributes from the rings. Those attirbutes give the GM very concrete things upon which to call for dice rolls. As it is now, I have a cheatsheet of rings and their descriptive adjectives. That’s what I use to determine the ring. But I can live with that. The biggest stumbling block for me has been the skill list. The skill list is extremely limited and vague, and it seems to be built from the assumption of one possible style of play. The conflict mechanic (which is the mechanic by which you’re supposed to resolve all conflicts — be they combat, social or otherwise) has enumerable exceptions and special rules, and many require multiple “prep” rolls before you get to conflict resolution. I have no doubt that, in its final form, the rules will be much clearer and better organized. Of all the criticisms I have of the FFG Star Wars line, the books are a master work of organization. I *never* had problems figuring out how to do stuff in FFGSW. What we’ll do with the continuation after the 5th session is still very much up in the air. I would *like* to continue using the Beta rules, but it’s cumbersome to flip between the main book and the beta revisions (to make sure the rules in the main book haven’t changed). Additionally, the beta rules, as written, are, in my opinion, overly complex. I’m a big fan of quick combats, and this version (yeah, I know, it’s only a beta) doesn’t seem to support that. In 4th, many combats are resolved (or at least everyone knows what’s going to happen) in a couple rounds. And while FFG combats probably only take a few rounds as well, you’re rolling a lot more dice pools to get to the conclusion. I agree that it does feel clunkier for sure. This coming from a huge fan of l5r 4th. I especially dislike the conditions part of combat. The roll and keep version was way more elegant. You take wounds you take penalties. Simple. I also agree with your assessment of skills. I'm working on a specialty house rule idea to fix that. Basically you choose a specialty under the skill umbrella (example katana under the melee armed umbrella) and whenever you are using that skill you can reroll 1 skill die of your choice before choosing kept dice. Specialties would likely cost 3xp. With that said there are some misconceptions on the rules. Like losing strife at the end of a scene that I pointed out. Also it seems that folks, especially Dave, are of the mind that the advancement track restricts the things you can spend XP on. That's not the case. The advancement track represents the things you are required to learn to advance in your school. You can spend XP on anything you want essentially. So yes, Dave can learn Jade Strike if he can find someone to give him a copy/teach him. I'm going to do some looking today and see if I can't find/make a conflict flowchart.
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Post by Zaszamonde on Mar 12, 2018 10:01:00 GMT -8
Would it help to have some easy-to-update cheat sheets created by the community? To reduce page flipping?
For example, a flowsheet for duels, a table for skills and their approaches by ring?
What would be the most helpful?
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Post by SirGuido on Mar 12, 2018 17:27:03 GMT -8
Another thing I noticed was that while Stu chose the Fire Stance for his NPC they didn't resolve the effect of that stance. In Fire Stance you get additional successes on your check for every Strife rolled. Kimi never even chose a stance on her turn, she just struck. And the last comment is on the defense. I looked through all the documents and I can't see anywhere that says you suffer strife or fatigue when you defend.
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Post by SirGuido on Mar 12, 2018 18:00:05 GMT -8
Oh boy, I'm starting to feel like one of those know it all jerks now... But really I'm just trying to learn the rules just like you guys.
Whenever you get hit by a weapon you suffer damage. So when Stu's guy got hit in that Finishing Blow he took 4 Fatigue. If that Fatigue takes you over your Resilience -OR- the attack tells you to do so, you then make a Critical Strike. In this instance Kimi's roll had 3 successes and she only needed 2 I think to hit the NPC. So that extra success adds to the Deadliness of her Katana(normally 5, but Finishing Blow doubles it to 10) making the total severity 11. BUT the NPC still gets to make that Athletics roll to mitigate some of the severity of the Critical Strike. He still takes those wounds, but his Critical is reduced. Any wound that takes you over your resilience will automatically result in a Critical Strike. Any time you take wounds that take you over your Resilience +10 you not only get a Critical Strike but you are also Unconscious on top of that. All Critical Strike effects are based on the ring the character uses in that Athletics roll.
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Post by RudeAlert on Mar 12, 2018 18:54:35 GMT -8
Oh boy, I'm starting to feel like one of those know it all jerks now... But really I'm just trying to learn the rules just like you guys. Whenever you get hit by a weapon you suffer damage. So when Stu's guy got hit in that Finishing Blow he took 4 Fatigue. If that Fatigue takes you over your Resilience -OR- the attack tells you to do so, you then make a Critical Strike. In this instance Kimi's roll had 3 successes and she only needed 2 I think to hit the NPC. So that extra success adds to the Deadliness of her Katana(normally 5, but Finishing Blow doubles it to 10) making the total severity 11. BUT the NPC still gets to make that Athletics roll to mitigate some of the severity of the Critical Strike. He still takes those wounds, but his Critical is reduced. Any wound that takes you over your resilience will automatically result in a Critical Strike. Any time you take wounds that take you over your Resilience +10 you not only get a Critical Strike but you are also Unconscious on top of that. All Critical Strike effects are based on the ring the character uses in that Athletics roll. Hey, nothing wrong with being a know-it-all jerk, as long as you use your know-it-all powers for good and constructive ends. As for the second paragraph of you post. HOLY BALLZ!!! I haven't read the book so I don't have any context but damn! That looks clunky as all hell. No wonder Stu didn't look particularly enthusiastic during the duel scene. I wouldn't be overly enthused either if I knew I had to juggle rules like that just for a single attack. This stuff makes Old World of Darkness combat rules look positive lean and streamlined in comparison.
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Post by SirGuido on Mar 12, 2018 18:58:03 GMT -8
Oh boy, I'm starting to feel like one of those know it all jerks now... But really I'm just trying to learn the rules just like you guys. Whenever you get hit by a weapon you suffer damage. So when Stu's guy got hit in that Finishing Blow he took 4 Fatigue. If that Fatigue takes you over your Resilience -OR- the attack tells you to do so, you then make a Critical Strike. In this instance Kimi's roll had 3 successes and she only needed 2 I think to hit the NPC. So that extra success adds to the Deadliness of her Katana(normally 5, but Finishing Blow doubles it to 10) making the total severity 11. BUT the NPC still gets to make that Athletics roll to mitigate some of the severity of the Critical Strike. He still takes those wounds, but his Critical is reduced. Any wound that takes you over your resilience will automatically result in a Critical Strike. Any time you take wounds that take you over your Resilience +10 you not only get a Critical Strike but you are also Unconscious on top of that. All Critical Strike effects are based on the ring the character uses in that Athletics roll. Hey, nothing wrong with being a know-it-all jerk, as long as you use your know-it-all powers for good and constructive ends. As for the second paragraph of you post. HOLY BALLZ!!! I haven't read the book so I don't have any context but damn! That looks clunky as all hell. No wonder Stu didn't look particularly enthusiastic during the duel scene. I wouldn't be overly enthused either if I knew I had to juggle rules like that just for a single attack. This stuff makes Old World of Darkness combat rules look positive lean and streamlined in comparison. Yeah I agree. It's clunky for sure. I'm going to have to look the rules over when this gets printed before I consider buying it. A lot of it is elegant but combat is certainly not. I hate the conditions. With a fiery passion. The rest is needlessly complex too.
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Post by RudeAlert on Mar 13, 2018 12:02:24 GMT -8
It's really too bad, I like funky dice and at first I was really interested in the core concept of this game, but when I took a quick look at the Beta book I was left rather cold. Soooo many tables and charts for every single roll! At least with Star Wars and Genesys, there are a few tables to account for various roll results but they're all pretty widely applicable. From what I saw of the L5R Beta it looked like every single skill has its own individual table... how the hell do you run a game like that?
I initially expected the game to be even simpler than Star Wars and Genesys due to the lower number of die types and symbols, but it seems like they somehow managed to make it way more complex and convoluted. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the final product looks like.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2018 12:46:43 GMT -8
I think the issue of the tables arises from the rings being so abstract. Any other system and you could easily pair skills and attributes because both are descriptive (ie you're trying to impress the bartender by demonstrating how tough you are... Roll Strength + Storytelling etc)
With the rings though they need to explain what every possible combination means, hence the tables and the clunkyness. I do wonder if it'll become easier with familiarity but the designers could have easily got around it by keeping the attributes from 4e even if they were just along the lines of Water: Strength & Perception, without having the descriptors as individual stats.
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Post by Zaszamonde on Mar 14, 2018 6:11:05 GMT -8
I think the issue of the tables arises from the rings being so abstract. Any other system and you could easily pair skills and attributes because both are descriptive (ie you're trying to impress the bartender by demonstrating how tough you are... Roll Strength + Storytelling etc) With the rings though they need to explain what every possible combination means, hence the tables and the clunkyness. I do wonder if it'll become easier with familiarity but the designers could have easily got around it by keeping the attributes from 4e even if they were just along the lines of Water: Strength & Perception, without having the descriptors as individual stats. But isn't that a standard problem for all PbtA games then? For Legend of the Elements, it's Natural, Hot, Solid, Keen, Fluid. Those don't line up to old-style attributes like strength, etc. I wonder if the solution is a better character sheet. Maybe give short descriptions of the rings in blanket cases next to the stat, like in many PbtA playbooks.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2018 8:49:23 GMT -8
The difference there is that with PbtA the game tells you what to roll for each move. Unless you take a specific upgrade you a move that says Roll + Hot will be the same each and every time you make the move.
With the current L5R system you could roll Fire + Athletics or Water + Athletics or any of the other Ring + Athletics combos so you need to explain what each of those combinations mean for each and every skill, hence the excessive number of tables.
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Post by Zaszamonde on Mar 14, 2018 11:13:09 GMT -8
The difference there is that with PbtA the game tells you what to roll for each move. Unless you take a specific upgrade you a move that says Roll + Hot will be the same each and every time you make the move. With the current L5R system you could roll Fire + Athletics or Water + Athletics or any of the other Ring + Athletics combos so you need to explain what each of those combinations mean for each and every skill, hence the excessive number of tables. True. Very true. I guess it boils down to a combination of design and writing. If the design is extremely situational, that is Fire means X in this context, but Y in that context, it's bad. If it's just a matter of them not finding the way to write out that Fire is X,Y, and Z at all times, similar to the short descriptors in PbtA, then it should be solvable and related to the earlier problem with horrible organization.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2018 14:08:49 GMT -8
In the beta I would class it as bad design, the approaches are just so specifically designed that trying to guess which is which is impossible. For example these are the approaches for the same ring for different skill groups:
Invent a new piece from raw materials (artisan skill group) Theorize possibilities of its nature (scholar skill group) Innovate a new way to get what you need (trade skill group) Overwhelm opposing force with a quick burst of power (martial skill group) Incite them to act on their emotions and desires (social skill group)
Now without looking at the book could you have confidently said those were all associated with the Fire ring?
From a design point of view I get why they went with it as it ensures that each ring has a use with each skill but during actual play it makes it really difficult to know what is the best combination of skill and approach without regularly referencing the table.*
*Note: I'm going from the original beta document here, don't have any of the updates available.
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Post by Zaszamonde on Mar 14, 2018 14:52:52 GMT -8
It almost sounds like the developers bounced between a traditional attribute/skill system and a more narrative one and got the worst of both.
They should just have a short descriptor of each ring and the players have to decide how they're using the skill according to those short descriptors.
Fire is the element of emotion, change, and destruction. That fits pretty easily for 3-5 on your list. 2 is a stretch. 1 if you squint, but it's hard.
If I were them, I'd remove the ring/skill tables entirely and just focus on understanding how the rings effect the world. If it's fuzzy, it's up to the GM. That's what they're there for.
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