D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Apr 8, 2018 11:17:06 GMT -8
Discuss.
|
|
fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Apr 8, 2018 12:10:24 GMT -8
Erm ... I disagree
|
|
SirGuido
Supporter
Drizztmas Santa
Ask me about the Drizztmas Exchange!
Posts: 2,127
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, Traveller, Fate Accelerated, Masks
Currently Playing: Nothing.
Currently Running: Nothing.
Favorite Species of Monkey: Anything in a Cage.
|
Post by SirGuido on Apr 8, 2018 14:04:39 GMT -8
I don't disagree at all. There are far too many players out there that refuse to try GMing. We have a local Facebook group that I started about 7 years ago now for people to find other locals to game with. It works great... as long as its the GM posting the game. If its a player they always post "Looking for a GM to run AD&D 2E in the Birthright setting with optional rules from the Dragonlance setting and blah blah blah" or something very very similar. The players are basically quite demanding of what it is they want. And then generally I will post "If you can't find a GM to run that specific thing, why don't you give it a try yourself?" and I generally get "Oh I don't know how." Uhm, you know enough about the system that you know exactly which ruleset you want to play, what setting, and what optional rules. Why can't you GM? Oh right, you don't want to work for your fun you want someone else to do it for you.
Had a guy post on that group just yesterday with "Looking for a GM to run Shadowrun 3rd edition at my house in (insert town about an hour away from where this group is mostly based), every Sunday at 2pm. I have 2 total players already." Then another guy posted "I love that game, wish I could find a GM too." And they start going back and forth about all these rules things they love and how great the game is until finally guy 1 invites guy 2 and his brother to join as well IF THEY FIND A GM. So as usual, I comment "One of you should GM, sounds like you already have a good handle on things and a group well educated on the rules, it shouldn't be too difficult. Give it a shot!"
"Oh, no I could never GM that's too hard." "Yeah, its too much work, and besides I don't even know how."
SMH. This is the attitude of a lot of players. Most players I know refuse to GM because they are afraid of it or something, so instead they just insist that their GM run the game they want to play.
|
|
|
Post by the0gekko0state on Apr 8, 2018 16:12:13 GMT -8
Didn't give us much to go on. I agree and disagree at the same time. It's almost a person per person case. I agree with SirGuido. Some people just need to suck it up and GM. They will probably love it too. I was kind of that way. I thought I'd never run a game but would play all the time. Till a friend lent me L5R fourth and was like run it! So I ran a two night game and loved it. But then I feel some people are good players and that's as far as they'll go. I have a guy in my Monday group who is a great player but I can't see him GMing. I think it would be interesting to see it, but the possibility of him doing it are none.
|
|
|
Post by fray on Apr 8, 2018 20:43:04 GMT -8
I think it's a subjective thing for sure. I know people that didn't know the rule system that well and never GM'd before doing a great job. and the opposite has happened too.
it's really a crap shoot.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2018 21:51:36 GMT -8
Being a GM doesn't exclude you from being 'the worst'. Besides for the fact that definitions of 'the worst' vary widely, some people are capable of understanding a job without performing it. Arguably a good roleplayer wouldn't need to GM to understand the steps involved. Much like the 'describe making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich' exercise, most players could work their way through the motions of planning and running a game.
Also, I think telling people to GM the game they want to play is largely unhelpful. It's like putting a delicious cake in front of someone who can't eat it. "But hey, you can still enjoy it by smelling it right?" I may love cyberpunk, but I certainly don't want to run it for a bunch of people who don't understand it like I do. I want to be the gritty detective, not try to explain what's cool about that to a bunch of murderhobos.
All that aside, most players who are 'the worst' aren't an issue because they've never GM'd. They'd be as big an issue or worse if they had to run things. Their personalities and personal problems are the issue, not the lack of understanding for the other side of the GM screen.
|
|
tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
|
Post by tomes on Apr 9, 2018 6:29:57 GMT -8
GM? Player?
More GMless games please. It shows everyone that any group can facilitate and run a game, and that the story that comes out of it is the result of everyone at the table. Many of these are super simple, and uber fun. Best easy examples, with rules that are a few pages: The Final Girl. The Quiet Year.
Teaches how to share the spotlight; listen to your compatriots; incorporate other players ideas into the story; be obvious (instead of trying to overshoot by being "creative" or "funny").
In fact, my argument is: Players and GMs that haven't played GMless games are the worst.
(come at me bro)
|
|
fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
|
Post by fredrix on Apr 9, 2018 7:44:27 GMT -8
Being a GM doesn't exclude you from being 'the worst'. Besides for the fact that definitions of 'the worst' vary widely, some people are capable of understanding a job without performing it. Yes that’s my point. The objectively worst playing in my social circle, was not just a GM, but an excellent GM
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Apr 9, 2018 12:01:26 GMT -8
This post was created after our 5e game. My friend puts tons of prep and hard work into her game and really goes the extra mile for it to be a fantastic experience. I love me some GMless games tomes but there is something that happens when a good GM creates an adventure that you get to experience. Not rails per se but a plot/world you get to roll around in and become deeply immersed. I love PbtA but I’ve heard both Stu Venable and Kimi bring this up...you can be the best non-meta gamer in the world but there’s something to be said when a mystery is truly a mystery to both character and player. Anyway I was five sheets to the wind when I wrote this annoyed with my non-GM friends as they got super excited about the endless jar of mayonnaise instead of discovering the tome to operate the ancient iron golems and smash the autocratic ruler... At the moment I just saw it as a group of unappreciative assholes talking/texting on their cell phones during a really good movie. I think all points stated here are valid. It’s my opinion that many develop greater appreciation trying on the GMs sweat stained fedora.
|
|
tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
|
Post by tomes on Apr 9, 2018 12:11:02 GMT -8
I love me some GMless games tomes but there is something that happens when a good GM creates an adventure that you get to experience. Not rails per se but a plot/world you get to roll around in and become deeply immersed. I love PbtA but I’ve heard both Stu Venable and Kimi bring this up...you can be the best non-meta gamer in the world but there’s something to be said when a mystery is truly a mystery to both character and player. One of my favorite game I've run at con has been my Star Frontiers adventure. Every time. It involves a strongly curated experience. It is almost as railroady as I get (you are GOING to investigate that distress call). It involves character AND player secrets, and that's worked out to its benefit each time. So yah, I get it. BUT, there is some little truth kernel in what I said above... I think GMless games are a way (just one way, but still) to teach people how to play together in a collaborative fashion, and to move towards GM-ing. It removes that barrier of "I couldn't possibly lead the story, I'm not creative enough" or whatever... No, fucker, you just did it, just as much as the rest of us. It is a way to ease someone into removing the pressure of thinking that the GM is responsible for everyone's fun, cause fuck that.
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Apr 9, 2018 17:23:58 GMT -8
PbtA is GM school.
|
|
nevvur
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 13
Currently Running: D&D 5e
|
Post by nevvur on Apr 9, 2018 22:38:18 GMT -8
I think it probably takes a player with GM experience to truly be "the worst." Any random player can fuck up a game, but to really earn that title, you need to do something deliberate and awful, and a player with GM experience has a better toolkit for dismantling a wide variety of tables.
In the end, though, if all you're looking to do is ruin the experience for other people, it's easier just to get to know the other players' pet peeves than bother trying to run the game. In fact, I advise against learning to GM for anyone aspiring to be the worst player. There's too much work for too little reward, even if you're just planning to wing the whole thing and have rocks fall at the end of the session.
|
|
|
Post by vyrrk on Apr 12, 2018 13:22:09 GMT -8
I think in a perfect world everyone should have GM'ed and played at some point. I think it makes people a more well rounded gamer. That being said... I think the real thing is investment. As a GM you are "Invested" with a capital I. You have to be to make it work. But players can feel like they have a choice if they want to be invested that day. People that have GM'ed before often have fellow feeling and will put in the effort. BUT... my best player, the guy most invested, the guy that has actually learned the rules and texts me during the week... He has never GM'ed ever. So... that's my 2 cents.
|
|
|
Post by Zaszamonde on Apr 12, 2018 17:28:17 GMT -8
Generally, I would agree with the premise that players that have never GM'd tend to be worse players than those who have.
I think it comes down to understanding failure. The best way for a player to understand that failure is good is to be a GM at least one. Either they'll suck at it and return to being a player and learn what's going on behind the screen (a good experience) or they'll be not bad at it and they'll know that for the game to succeed, the GM has to lose (and the players have to win).
On the other hand, you could end up with a "I'm writing a story" GM and they'd learn nothing.
|
|
D.T. Pints
Instigator
JACKERCON 2018: WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY June 22-July 1st
Posts: 2,857
Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
Currently Running: DUNGEONWORLD, PATHFINDER
|
Post by D.T. Pints on Apr 12, 2018 17:48:58 GMT -8
|
|