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Post by akavidar on Apr 30, 2018 12:55:37 GMT -8
This reminds me of the old comedy routine. Man goes to the Doctor and says, "Doc, it hurts when I do this." and the Doctor says "Well, stop doing that, then!"
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Post by natebob on Apr 30, 2018 13:14:31 GMT -8
This reminds me of the old comedy routine. Man goes to the Doctor and says, "Doc, it hurts when I do this." and the Doctor says "Well, stop doing that, then!" Pretty much, except that the patient feels entitled to do what they are doing they just don't want it to hurt.
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Post by ayslyn on Apr 30, 2018 16:38:22 GMT -8
Man, this right here is exactly why monsterhearts was created. By the way, there is a world of difference between a game not being "for you" and being something you aren't into. I'll illustrate with a really offensive line. "D&D isn't for you _______." Put whatever qualifier you want in the blank. Also, how are all the other RPG's "for me?" That's making some pretty big assumptions about myself and every other game in existence. And I assure you, ever other author did not sit down and go, "Let's make games for straight white guys!", which I know is what you meant. I actually don't know anything about you personally; so I made no assumptions except that you didn't like MH2. I was just pointing out that there are tons of role playing games out there and surely some of them you will be in to, or else you would not be on HJ forums stirring up shit about a tiny little indie game that like a thousand people care and know about world wide. So all I meant was, there are lots of games out there and it's awful that you found one don't like; so don't play it. Play something else. Even MH1 was a good fit for you by your report. Not everything is supposed to be just to your liking. Actually, that's the assumption that is getting you into "trouble". It's pretty apparent that he does actually like MH. He doesn't like this one rule.... And aside from all the other hullabaloo, he's got a point on this one. MH is a game about teen monsters who don't know their own sexual identities. Allowing someone to decide that their sexuality is asexuality runs directly counter to the game. It would be like someone in a Call of Cthulhu game deciding that they were immune to sanity loss. I am heterosexual. Men just don't do it for me. I won't get aroused by a man, regardless of how good looking he is, or interesting, or whatever. But the premise of MH doesn't allow me to say that the fictional version of me (presuming I were playing myself in said game) doesn't get turned on by male characters. Gay characters don't get to say that they're not turned on by female characters. Being true to the identity of the game, asexuality would call for a perfect string of failed Turn On rolls against a character.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on May 1, 2018 22:45:36 GMT -8
Wading in here. And aside from all the other hullabaloo, he's got a point on this one. MH is a game about teen monsters who don't know their own sexual identities. Allowing someone to decide that their sexuality is asexuality runs directly counter to the game. It would be like someone in a Call of Cthulhu game deciding that they were immune to sanity loss. <snip> Being true to the identity of the game, asexuality would call for a perfect string of failed Turn On rolls against a character. I find it weird that you can say "this thing runs counter to the game" or "this thing is against the identity of the game" when referring to something the designer has included. Like, we're not talking about a third party rules hack here. We're talking about the author of the game. And I'm not saying that people aren't entitled to differing opinions or that things should be above criticism because of who created them. But as someone who believes that "system matters", anything that's been included/left out has been done so intentionally to steer the game experience is a direction chose by the author. Here's the section headed on asexuality from the MH 2e book:
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Post by ayslyn on May 2, 2018 1:53:32 GMT -8
Just because the designer decided to add something doesn't mean that it doesn't actually run contrary to the identity of the game. Hell. It's right there in the passage you quoted. Being asexual is fixed and predictable. Just as much so as any other sexuality is. In a game where the idea is that you don't understand your own sexuality and that your sexuality is fluid, a rule that says that you DO understand your own sexuality and that it is fixed -- by definition -- runs directly counter to that idea.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on May 2, 2018 3:44:30 GMT -8
Where does the quoted text state that asexuality is fixed and predictable? Because I don't see it.
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Post by natebob on May 2, 2018 3:49:38 GMT -8
I don't understand why if you were to not like one rule in a game that you just ignore it or play an earlier version? If this rule makes you uncomfortable and you feel it imbalances the game unfairly then ignore it. If it makes the game un-fun then ignore it. The whole argument is silly to me. That's why I suggested playing any other game or playing MH1. If you don't get this whole Asexuality thing and don't see why they need a special rule in a game like MH to help them feel more welcome to be themselves at the table then fine ignore it.
Personally, I think it was very progressive of Avery to include Asexuality as a legit sexuality supported by the rules. It makes this Queer game more Queer and more inviting to asexuals.
I understand everyone's point that it mechanically breaks the game or, for them, is antithetical to the core premise of the game. Just don't play with that rule. Hopefully, no one will feel unwelcome because of your choice to omit that rule. Hence my earlier statement,
"Maybe Monster Hearts isn't for you..."
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Post by ayslyn on May 2, 2018 6:15:49 GMT -8
Where does the quoted text state that asexuality is fixed and predictable? Because I don't see it. Now you’re just being obtuse. The text says that sexuality is fluid. It then takes a stance that asexuality is not fluid by adding in the option to completely ignore Turn On rolls. This isn’t so much a subtle trail of breadcrumbs as it is a full scale media blitz that would make South of the Border* envious. *For those unfamiliar. SotB is a tourist trap just on the southern side of the North/South Carolina border. There’s about a few million billboards advertising it for miles in every direction.
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Post by ayslyn on May 2, 2018 6:19:55 GMT -8
I don't understand why if you were to not like one rule in a game that you just ignore it or play an earlier version? If this rule makes you uncomfortable and you feel it imbalances the game unfairly then ignore it. If it makes the game un-fun then ignore it. The whole argument is silly to me. That's why I suggested playing any other game or playing MH1. If you don't get this whole Asexuality thing and don't see why they need a special rule in a game like MH to help them feel more welcome to be themselves at the table then fine ignore it. Personally, I think it was very progressive of Avery to include Asexuality as a legit sexuality supported by the rules. It makes this Queer game more Queer and more inviting to asexuals. I understand everyone's point that it mechanically breaks the game or, for them, is antithetical to the core premise of the game. Just don't play with that rule. Hopefully, no one will feel unwelcome because of your choice to omit that rule. Hence my earlier statement, "Maybe Monster Hearts isn't for you..." It’s a discussion. This is how they work. Personally I think trying to just shut it down is the hard thing to understand. We understand that we don’t Have to use the rule. It’s clearly indicated by the fact that its optional. That doesn’t mean that there’s no value in discussing it.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on May 2, 2018 22:27:51 GMT -8
Where does the quoted text state that asexuality is fixed and predictable? Because I don't see it. Now you’re just being obtuse. While the brevity of my question and lack of follow up explaining where I'm coming from does make it look like I'm being argumentative, I am honestly asking that question in good faith. Because when I read the quoted section, I do not see anything either explicit or implied that says asexuality is fixed and predictable. I am curious why you feel it is being handled that way. The section on asexuality explains that the game aims to challenge common narratives by not giving players control over who turns their characters on, just as you point out. But then the author goes on to say asexuality is included to challenge the common narrative of everyone being a sexual person. The last bit in that paragraph specifically calls out that players can use the asexuality rules for their character on a situational basis or whenever feels right so that various positions on the asexuality spectrum can be explored. That to me explicitly states that asexuality is not "fixed or predictable", so again, this is why I ask, in good faith, why you say it is.
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Post by ayslyn on May 4, 2018 17:11:30 GMT -8
It's right in the nature of asexuality. Either you feel sexual attraction, and are not asexual, or you don't and are. There isn't a spectrum here. It's actually a binary option. I know, I know.... People these days don't like the Fact that some things do in fact come down to that. But, this happens to be one of them. So, yeah. By definition, it's a fixed sexuality. It's not a narrative, it's not an opinion. It's just a fact.
Now....
That being said, if "you" want to include an asexual spectrum in your game, that's your choice and you don't need my approval to do it. You've got it, regardless. As I constantly maintain, so long as everyone at the table is having fun, your choices are none of my business, and I am all good with you having fun any way that you choose to.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on May 4, 2018 21:48:41 GMT -8
We're in total agreement about the definition of asexuality; it's a lack of sexual attraction. I think we're going to disagree on the binary thing though. I'm nowhere close to being an expert on this topic, and the internet is notoriously unreliable, but the sites that come up when I do a Google search talk about "varied asexual identities", "demisexuality and gray-asexuality", and an "asexual spectrum".
But as you said, if I want to include an asexuality spectrum in my game, that's fine. That's all the designer has done here.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2018 21:54:52 GMT -8
I actually don't know anything about you personally; so I made no assumptions except that you didn't like MH2. I was just pointing out that there are tons of role playing games out there and surely some of them you will be in to, or else you would not be on HJ forums stirring up shit about a tiny little indie game that like a thousand people care and know about world wide. So all I meant was, there are lots of games out there and it's awful that you found one don't like; so don't play it. Play something else. Even MH1 was a good fit for you by your report. Not everything is supposed to be just to your liking. Yeah, bullshit. Every other game in the world was made for me? What could I possibly be that every other game was made for me? Were you suggesting that I was Asian? Perhaps trans? Maybe I was Black? Or perhaps a woman? My name is Steven. I play RPG’s and visit rpg forums. Take a wild guess at what I am. Go on. I’ll wait... Yeah, you can’t slander me as being the privileged majority and then claim you don’t know or haven’t made assumptions about me. I take offense to that kind of thing. I take even more offense to the fact that you seem to think I’m so stupid that I wouldn’t notice what you did. I did notice, and it’s not cool. Also, I like the game. The only reason I bother talking about it at all is because I like the game, and it’s a damn shame this sort of thing was included in it.
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Post by ayslyn on May 5, 2018 6:26:44 GMT -8
We're in total agreement about the definition of asexuality; it's a lack of sexual attraction. I think we're going to disagree on the binary thing though. I'm nowhere close to being an expert on this topic, and the internet is notoriously unreliable, but the sites that come up when I do a Google search talk about "varied asexual identities", "demisexuality and gray-asexuality", and an "asexual spectrum". But as you said, if I want to include an asexuality spectrum in my game, that's fine. That's all the designer has done here. Yeah.... Using a notoriously unreliable source which, by the by, includes things like: how Grey Goo will destroy the earth that said Earth is flat That we faked the moon landing How bad vaccines are for you how bad fluoride is for you how ALL GMOs are bad People say a lot of things. That doesn't make them true. Asexuality is a binary option. And someone's feelings about how they actually only feel attraction on every other Sunday is Their Truth of asexuality doesn't mean that they are right. The definition of asexuality is "Without sexual feelings or associations."* If you get sexual feelings (regardless of how little/infrequently) you are, quite simply, not asexual. * Full disclosure, there is a second definition, with a sub definition included within that.... They are both biologically related, and have nothing to do with sexual identity, so I did not address them above. We are not talking about people who completely lack sexual organs here, nor are we talking about reproduction that does not involve the fusing of gametes.
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jedidroid
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Post by jedidroid on May 5, 2018 7:27:27 GMT -8
So, asylyn, your problem is one of definition.
I haven’t paid for these books, so I only have the parts that you’ve quoted so far. Working off that, the author has used the phrase “asexual spectrum “. This leads me to believe that they decided to keep the word count down rather than specifically list what falls into that spectrum (for instance the demisexual who needs a strong emotional bond before feeling attraction). Once you move past the limited single definition and incorporate the gray areas that are not purely asexual but also not overtly sexual, you may find more meaning in this optional move. The move allows an option when the character would fall into those “almost asexual” moments, while not impinging on the fluid nature of the character’s identity.
Furthermore, you are being deliberately obtuse over the term sexual trauma. If you can not reasonably determine what that term might constitute, I doubt I would want you as it’s artbiter at my table.
The idea I’m gathering is this game is meant to be open and accepting, while the attitude you are showing is neither of those things. You like the first iteration, so it’s fair to assume you can be open minded, but you’re arguments as stated don’t support that.
TLDR : I don’t think asexual players or character are getting a free pass. I think the game is including more options for situations that may arise.
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