G.I. Joe
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 147
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, FATE, GURPS
Currently Playing: Isawa Miriko: Split soul made whole again... with memory issues. Homura (Formerly Isawa Kiyoi) - wandering fire Priestess; Girart - a GURPS low-tech combat monkey w/19ST
Currently Running: Fushigina Ronin (L5R 4th ed)
Favorite Species of Monkey: Winston
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Post by G.I. Joe on May 21, 2018 10:21:08 GMT -8
Hi all,
I am planning on running a L5R game for some coworkers after our Pathfinder game is completed. While this will probably be awhile, I want to get an early start, as I want most of it prepped before our current game actually ends. The main concept for the game is that the players are young courtiers (and possibly their yojimbo) who are being sent to a winter court with low stakes. It is kind of like a training camp for promising courtiers. They will all have a more senior courtier with them, but that courtier will not tell them what to do, in fact, they may not even give much advice; just watch. And judge. I think I am either going to have it be hosted by the Crane or by an Imperial Family (though I'm leaning more towards the Crane).
What I need help with is twofold:
First, is there a less derisive/dismissive chart for what the clans think of each other, possibly including the Spider (as the game is going to be set after Iweko I added them as a Great Clan)? While the one in the 4th ed. book is nice, it seems too antagonistic for new players, though I could let them know that the ones presented are the most extreme viewpoints for each clan. The reason I am worried is that over half of the players come from a D20 background and thus are used to absolutes like alignment, and I would prefer to have a simpler version that leaves more room for pleasant relations. (So looking slightly less down on the clans)
Second, What are good topics for a low stakes court? Each courtier is going to have a list of things that they are trying to get, as long as what they can and cannot promise in return for them; this will not be an exhaustive list and many of the things will conflict (for example, two clans will want the same thing from a third clan).
To make the game not just a game of diplomacy, and to give any yojimbo characters something to do, I plan on having one of the senior courtiers get murdered, with the PCs being the ONLY ones whom the daimyo of the keep knows for a fact did not commit the crime (they will have been having tea with the daimyo when the murder happened). The first two suspects will likely be from the Spider and Scorpion clans, but I plan on having it be members of the Kolat, though exactly who it is I will deice through play.
Thanks in advance.
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Post by uncommonman on May 21, 2018 13:26:41 GMT -8
I think a "prequel session" where they can experience some fighting, some tainting and some loss of honor followed by Seppuku is a good idea.
This should be done with PreGenerated characters so they feel free ro act out and probably die.
It could be connected to the main story but it needn't be.
It is also a good way to interduce them to the world and the culture of L5R.
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G.I. Joe
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 147
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, FATE, GURPS
Currently Playing: Isawa Miriko: Split soul made whole again... with memory issues. Homura (Formerly Isawa Kiyoi) - wandering fire Priestess; Girart - a GURPS low-tech combat monkey w/19ST
Currently Running: Fushigina Ronin (L5R 4th ed)
Favorite Species of Monkey: Winston
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Post by G.I. Joe on May 21, 2018 13:50:16 GMT -8
I like that idea. Though the one issue with trying to taint them is that they have to choose to accept it, as I am using the newer Taint rules (the ones after the spider join the empire)
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Post by yojimbohawkins on May 23, 2018 1:47:02 GMT -8
Hi G.I. JoeThis sounds like an interesting concept. L5R court games are probably my favourite type in the setting, so I do have some advice/observations. You've already picked up on one of the problematic cornerstones of L5R; inter-clan rivalry is baked into the setting. It's why the default game is usually Yoriki PC's, or Imperial Legionnaires, etc, etc. The characters need a reason to work together, because they'll be actively working against each other in your court setting. You'll have your PC's basically acting as yoriki, so you're giving them that reason which will (maybe! ) head off some of that. I don't know your players, but by the way you talk about them coming from d20, I have a few suggestions. Personally, for players new to the setting, I'd put some Clans off-limits. I generally try and steer new players away from the Scorpion, the Crane, the Lion and the Spider, because IMHO these Clans are more challenging to play for new players (I know others here will disagree .) The Crane's focus on etiquette, style and influence can be a little intimidating for new players; Cranes are brought up proper, so to speak, and unfailing politeness and comportment while subtly insulting your opponent in such a way that they either can't take offence without losing face or have to take offence and challenge you to a duel can be somewhat of an acquired taste for some players, especially when you factor in all the etiquette around duelling! Everyone hates and mistrusts the Spider Clan even though they have been ordered to accept them, so, depending on your RP taste, having a player actually be one can make for a challenging game and throw some unwanted obstacles into your intro game. Additionally, although the Spider are seen to be evil, soulless, demon-worshipping weirdos, they still have to treat and be treated politely (and it's probably worth explaining to the players that they'll gain Honour by doing so, but more on that in a bit). Similarly, the Scorpion Clan is probably the most misunderstood Clan for new players (and apologies if this all sounds a bit patronising; that's not my intent). The Scorpion are seen as dishonourable for good reason in the setting, and I've seen new players immediately go for a Shosuro Infiltrator, probably because Ninja (although there's a great sidebar in the Great Clans book explaining that the chumps in black pyjamas are the distraction for the Shosuro Actors to go about their business unnoticed), but mainly because they assume that Honour doesn't matter to a Scorpion, so they can act however they want. There are a few schools that negate Honour losses for acting dishonourably, but they are few indeed, and the concept that dishonourable acts affect everyone, even the Scorpion and the Spider regardless of justification, is potentially a hard one to get across. The Scorpion are just willing to take the Honour hit (which is why I like using the optional Honour roll). I can't remember where it is off the top of my head (maybe 2nd edition?), but there was a great piece in one of the books that talked about the tightrope the Scorpion have to walk every day; openly acting like a dishonourable dick will get you nowhere, and potentially has wider ramifications for the Clan as a whole. I'll try and find it, because it's really good. The Lion are my favourite Clan, but their focus on Honour can be a bit unsettling for new players. For me, it's a bit like the old D&D Paladin problem; Lions are sometimes mistaken for the Honour Police. However, like the older D&D Paladin problem, Lawful Good isn't Lawful Stupid. Lions aren't morons; they know their Bushido ideal is impossible to attain, but striving for it is the point. Other Clans just don't have the courage to try, and why would they; they're not Lions! I try and make sure Lion players have a copy of the Honour table to hand to illustrate this point. However, I may be doing your players a disservice, so you can obviously take the above with a pinch of salt. So, let's talk about the oni in the room: Honour. I have seen more arguments at an L5R game over whether a character's actions are honourable or not than I'd like (which is why I like to have the Honour table to hand). Flippantly, I used to have a rule of thumb whereby if you needed to justify how honourable your character's actions are, you can pretty much guarantee that they aren't! However I feel that it's important to set the tone honour-wise as soon as possible. Try not to use Honour as a reward for the players at the end of a session. Making it a reward in that way can make it as important as gaining XP to some players in a purely meta-game sense, and that's not really what it's for. Imagine if you took away some earned XP from a player in the next session; there's probably going to be a discussion (and perhaps a robust one!) as to the why's and wherefores’ of that GM decision, and I feel that a lot of similar discussions about losing Honour can be headed off by trying to avoid Honour rewards. I like to award XP at the end of the session, maybe even Status or Glory, but not Honour if I can help it. I prefer to talk about it in game, referring to the Honour table if necessary for new players, and award or remove Honour as I go. My main reason for this is that talking about it puts it right up front (which is a central tenet of the game for me), and it gives the players the chance to weigh up their choices; just because an action is dishonourable doesn't mean that the player shouldn't do it, but is it worth your, and by association your daimyo and Clan's, honour? Sacrificing your Honour is as big a deal as sacrificing your life in this setting, so it should be something L5R players have in the back of their minds during the game. Keeping Honour present in game allows those choices to be meaningful, even for the more 'dishonourable' Clans, and hopefully it will eventually become something everyone acknowledges without having to talk through it, which is largely (for me anyway) the ideal way to deal with it. I have some ideas on your finishing school for courtiers concept (I like the idea of that), but as I think about them, I feel that they are more about how I would set up and run a game, and it's not my game! I'll be interested to hear how it goes though.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on May 23, 2018 13:08:50 GMT -8
I like that idea. Though the one issue with trying to taint them is that they have to choose to accept it, as I am using the newer Taint rules (the ones after the spider join the empire) You know, instead of the Shadowlands Taint, you could use the Nothing. Having a Greater Shadowspawn (shapeshifted into someone the characters trust) offer them cool Shadow powers is a good way to start them on that downward spiral.
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Post by yojimbohawkins on May 24, 2018 6:01:08 GMT -8
Hi all, I am planning on running a L5R game for some coworkers after our Pathfinder game is completed. While this will probably be awhile, I want to get an early start, as I want most of it prepped before our current game actually ends. The main concept for the game is that the players are young courtiers (and possibly their yojimbo) who are being sent to a winter court with low stakes. It is kind of like a training camp for promising courtiers. They will all have a more senior courtier with them, but that courtier will not tell them what to do, in fact, they may not even give much advice; just watch. And judge. I think I am either going to have it be hosted by the Crane or by an Imperial Family (though I'm leaning more towards the Crane). What I need help with is twofold: First, is there a less derisive/dismissive chart for what the clans think of each other, possibly including the Spider (as the game is going to be set after Iweko I added them as a Great Clan)? While the one in the 4th ed. book is nice, it seems too antagonistic for new players, though I could let them know that the ones presented are the most extreme viewpoints for each clan. The reason I am worried is that over half of the players come from a D20 background and thus are used to absolutes like alignment, and I would prefer to have a simpler version that leaves more room for pleasant relations. (So looking slightly less down on the clans) Second, What are good topics for a low stakes court? Each courtier is going to have a list of things that they are trying to get, as long as what they can and cannot promise in return for them; this will not be an exhaustive list and many of the things will conflict (for example, two clans will want the same thing from a third clan). To make the game not just a game of diplomacy, and to give any yojimbo characters something to do, I plan on having one of the senior courtiers get murdered, with the PCs being the ONLY ones whom the daimyo of the keep knows for a fact did not commit the crime (they will have been having tea with the daimyo when the murder happened). The first two suspects will likely be from the Spider and Scorpion clans, but I plan on having it be members of the Kolat, though exactly who it is I will deice through play. Thanks in advance. So maybe the Crane have managed to convince the Daughter of Heaven that the other Clans should have their *ahem* 'rough edges' polished away by the Doji in a diplomacy finishing school. That's why the other Clans are present; it's an Imperial order. If you can ensure that there are no Crane PC's, then you can set the Crane up as antagonists of a sort, as they patronise and generally look down their noses at the junior courtiers from the other Clans. There could be poetry competitions (player-written haikus optional), art competitions, tea ceremonies, courtly romance, impromptu sadane matches, etc, etc. If you plan to stage a murder, maybe the finishing school is officially overseen by an Imperial Otomo NPC. This stops the Crane taking the investigation over and possibly playing the incident down; one of the goals of the Otomo could be to shame the Crane into closing this school, so when the murder occurs, they seize the chance to embarrass the Doji by appointing the PC's to investigate.
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Post by uncommonman on May 24, 2018 13:43:29 GMT -8
Hi all, I am planning on running a L5R game for some coworkers after our Pathfinder game is completed. While this will probably be awhile, I want to get an early start, as I want most of it prepped before our current game actually ends. The main concept for the game is that the players are young courtiers (and possibly their yojimbo) who are being sent to a winter court with low stakes. It is kind of like a training camp for promising courtiers. They will all have a more senior courtier with them, but that courtier will not tell them what to do, in fact, they may not even give much advice; just watch. And judge. I think I am either going to have it be hosted by the Crane or by an Imperial Family (though I'm leaning more towards the Crane). What I need help with is twofold: First, is there a less derisive/dismissive chart for what the clans think of each other, possibly including the Spider (as the game is going to be set after Iweko I added them as a Great Clan)? While the one in the 4th ed. book is nice, it seems too antagonistic for new players, though I could let them know that the ones presented are the most extreme viewpoints for each clan. The reason I am worried is that over half of the players come from a D20 background and thus are used to absolutes like alignment, and I would prefer to have a simpler version that leaves more room for pleasant relations. (So looking slightly less down on the clans) Second, What are good topics for a low stakes court? Each courtier is going to have a list of things that they are trying to get, as long as what they can and cannot promise in return for them; this will not be an exhaustive list and many of the things will conflict (for example, two clans will want the same thing from a third clan). To make the game not just a game of diplomacy, and to give any yojimbo characters something to do, I plan on having one of the senior courtiers get murdered, with the PCs being the ONLY ones whom the daimyo of the keep knows for a fact did not commit the crime (they will have been having tea with the daimyo when the murder happened). The first two suspects will likely be from the Spider and Scorpion clans, but I plan on having it be members of the Kolat, though exactly who it is I will deice through play. Thanks in advance. So maybe the Crane have managed to convince the Daughter of Heaven that the other Clans should have their *ahem* 'rough edges' polished away by the Doji in a diplomacy finishing school. That's why the other Clans are present; it's an Imperial order. If you can ensure that there are no Crane PC's, then you can set the Crane up as antagonists of a sort, as they patronise and generally look down their noses at the junior courtiers from the other Clans. There could be poetry competitions (player-written haikus optional), art competitions, tea ceremonies, courtly romance, impromptu sadane matches, etc, etc. If you plan to stage a murder, maybe the finishing school is officially overseen by an Imperial Otomo NPC. This stops the Crane taking the investigation over and possibly playing the incident down; one of the goals of the Otomo could be to shame the Crane into closing this school, so when the murder occurs, they seize the chance to embarrass the Doji by appointing the PC's to investigate. I love this idea and ypu could even make this a part of character creation if it is a yearly occurrence. Have the players play out short scenes while gradually advancing the characters.
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battlematt
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 74
Preferred Game Systems: Rules light & intuitive
Currently Running: Nuttin.
Favorite Species of Monkey: Spanked
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Post by battlematt on May 24, 2018 23:56:11 GMT -8
So, let's talk about the oni in the room: Honour. I have seen more arguments at an L5R game over whether a character's actions are honourable or not than I'd like (which is why I like to have the Honour table to hand). Flippantly, I used to have a rule of thumb whereby if you needed to justify how honourable your character's actions are, you can pretty much guarantee that they aren't! However I feel that it's important to set the tone honour-wise as soon as possible. Try not to use Honour as a reward for the players at the end of a session. Making it a reward in that way can make it as important as gaining XP to some players in a purely meta-game sense, and that's not really what it's for. Imagine if you took away some earned XP from a player in the next session; there's probably going to be a discussion (and perhaps a robust one!) as to the why's and wherefores’ of that GM decision, and I feel that a lot of similar discussions about losing Honour can be headed off by trying to avoid Honour rewards. I like to award XP at the end of the session, maybe even Status or Glory, but not Honour if I can help it. I prefer to talk about it in game, referring to the Honour table if necessary for new players, and award or remove Honour as I go. My main reason for this is that talking about it puts it right up front (which is a central tenet of the game for me), and it gives the players the chance to weigh up their choices; just because an action is dishonourable doesn't mean that the player shouldn't do it, but is it worth your, and by association your daimyo and Clan's, honour? Sacrificing your Honour is as big a deal as sacrificing your life in this setting, so it should be something L5R players have in the back of their minds during the game. Keeping Honour present in game allows those choices to be meaningful, even for the more 'dishonourable' Clans, and hopefully it will eventually become something everyone acknowledges without having to talk through it, which is largely (for me anyway) the ideal way to deal with it. I'm happy to see you bring this up, because IMO Honor is possibly the most problematic element in L5R's mechanics, and I'm seriously considering not tracking it at all. But a discussion about this would probably be better left for its own thread.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2018 13:22:19 GMT -8
The problem with not tracking it is there are a number of schools that mechanically utilise it. The last campaign I ran I kept track of it as GM and would update the players as to their current honour at the start of each session but would never tell them exactly what had earned or lost them honour.
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G.I. Joe
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 147
Preferred Game Systems: L5R, FATE, GURPS
Currently Playing: Isawa Miriko: Split soul made whole again... with memory issues. Homura (Formerly Isawa Kiyoi) - wandering fire Priestess; Girart - a GURPS low-tech combat monkey w/19ST
Currently Running: Fushigina Ronin (L5R 4th ed)
Favorite Species of Monkey: Winston
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Post by G.I. Joe on Aug 22, 2018 12:56:04 GMT -8
So maybe the Crane have managed to convince the Daughter of Heaven that the other Clans should have their *ahem* 'rough edges' polished away by the Doji in a diplomacy finishing school. That's why the other Clans are present; it's an Imperial order. If you can ensure that there are no Crane PC's, then you can set the Crane up as antagonists of a sort, as they patronise and generally look down their noses at the junior courtiers from the other Clans. There could be poetry competitions (player-written haikus optional), art competitions, tea ceremonies, courtly romance, impromptu sadane matches, etc, etc. If you plan to stage a murder, maybe the finishing school is officially overseen by an Imperial Otomo NPC. This stops the Crane taking the investigation over and possibly playing the incident down; one of the goals of the Otomo could be to shame the Crane into closing this school, so when the murder occurs, they seize the chance to embarrass the Doji by appointing the PC's to investigate. I like this idea! I am going to steal elements of it. So I was thinking that instead of an Imperial Order, the "courtly finishing school" was arranged by the mentors of the PCs and their peers. The mentors are all either old friends, relatives that were married into other Clans, or very close rivals to at least some of the other Clans' mentors (not sure I am phrasing that in the most clear way...). This low stakes court was the suggestion of a Doji courtier, Doji Takara. The idea arose from a conversation one winter court with her friend and rival, Asako Miki. Being from the two most pacifist Clans, they both wanted a way to promote harmony between the Clans, and getting inter-Clan friendships started young seemed as good a way as any. I haven't yet decided whether this is the first year of this court, if the mentors change which student they bring each winter, or the PCs have met before and had a productive, if not very meaningful; court session. What are some topics that would come up at a low stakes winter court? Whether or not the deals they make are real or pretend, the mentors' are not saying. There is actually another, more significant, winter court going on "above" the PC's between the mentors. I think I am going to set it in a small estate two days outside of Seven Fold Palace. (I could use a few ideas for a name). It looks like this: The reason that The PCs are chosen as the investigators, is that court must go on, and there are not enough house samurai to both provide security and help the one magistrate (who is an Emerald Magistrate who happened to be in town when the roads closed) investigate the murder. Furthermore, they can't send for anyone else to investigate because the roads are impassible because it's winter. Finally, the PC's are some of the few Samurai that the Daimyo of the estate (Kakita Hayate, brother-in-law of Doji Takara) knows for a fact are innocent, as he was having dinner with the young samurai at the time of the murder. They technically are not conducting the investigation, they are simply acting as deputies to the magistrate. As for who was murdered, if there is a Kitsuki Investigator mentor, they are dying first. I am going to figure out who done it as play goes along, though I am leaning towards having the Emerald Magistrate be the culprit, which would be fun as they try to figure out how to convict their [temporary] boss..., who has much higher Status than them. That could also be the reason why the Emerald Magistrate allowed the PCs to be assigned to him as deputies.
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