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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Oct 22, 2018 7:21:04 GMT -8
As a personal aside, the question came up "What can men do to help women in gaming?" and I have to say my answer is simple: Get out of the way. Being inclusive and accepting is nice, but not being a roadblock on the road to someone's fun is super helpful. For example, my wife rarely games with me and my gaming group but when she does she's often the voice of outside the box thinking and unintentionally goes against tropes, and every time it makes the game better. Say "Yes", treat them like you would like to be treated, and do your best to understand that just because you're at a gaming con doesn't mean gross or questionable behavior is okay (See: The Sean Patrick Fannon controversy and more...).
/rant
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tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on Oct 23, 2018 16:28:37 GMT -8
So, first off this was a fantastic episode. Great initial letter, and great discussion by all the hosts. I'm going to listen to this one again, and thanks Kimi, gina, tappy and plusx2a for all the insight and excellent words! This conversation is all the more relevant to me personally because many of us (I know gina included) came back from Big Bad Con, where they do much of this so very well, as they've consistently continued to make incremental improvements year after year. I find this very inspiring, and really hope to bring some of the lessons learned and strategies that have worked there, down to other game places (whether that is individual meetups, or our local Strategicon). kurtpotts hosted some of us attendees (including Monkeyfun Dave, Yoshi, Lauren, and Spencer) over on the Pixel Scandal Nerdcast on a Big Bad Con Recap episode, and if you found much of that initial conversation interesting, you may find some similar and relevant stuff interesting here:
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Post by ayslyn on Oct 23, 2018 17:30:15 GMT -8
As a personal aside, the question came up "What can men do to help women in gaming?" and I have to say my answer is simple: Get out of the way. Being inclusive and accepting is nice, but not being a roadblock on the road to someone's fun is super helpful. For example, my wife rarely games with me and my gaming group but when she does she's often the voice of outside the box thinking and unintentionally goes against tropes, and every time it makes the game better. Say "Yes", treat them like you would like to be treated, and do your best to understand that just because you're at a gaming con doesn't mean gross or questionable behavior is okay (See: The Sean Patrick Fannon controversy and more...). /rant The only issue that I take with this is that this is how you should be treating all of your players, regardless of their gender.
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Post by kurtpotts on Oct 23, 2018 19:06:08 GMT -8
So, first off this was a fantastic episode. Great initial letter, and great discussion by all the hosts. I'm going to listen to this one again, and thanks Kimi, gina, tappy and plusx2a for all the insight and excellent words! This conversation is all the more relevant to me personally because many of us (I know gina included) came back from Big Bad Con, where they do much of this so very well, as they've consistently continued to make incremental improvements year after year. I find this very inspiring, and really hope to bring some of the lessons learned and strategies that have worked there, down to other game places (whether that is individual meetups, or our local Strategicon). kurtpotts hosted some of us attendees (including Monkeyfun Dave, Yoshi, Lauren, and Spencer) over on the Pixel Scandal Nerdcast on a Big Bad Con Recap episode, and if you found much of that initial conversation interesting, you may find some similar and relevant stuff interesting here: Thanks tomes! This was a fun episode. Don’t be fooled by its long runtime. We covered the relevant discussion in the first hour.
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tomes
Supporter
Hello madness
Posts: 1,438
Currently Running: Dungeon World, hippie games, Fallout Shelter RPG hack
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Post by tomes on Oct 23, 2018 19:50:09 GMT -8
Thanks tomes! This was a fun episode. Don’t be fooled by its long runtime. We covered the relevant discussion in the first hour. Unfair. The "For The Queen" conversation was at 1:17:10, and should not be missed.
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HyveMynd
Supporter
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Post by HyveMynd on Oct 23, 2018 20:30:59 GMT -8
The only issue that I take with this is that this is how you should be treating all of your players, regardless of their gender. I feel like you're "all lives matter"-ing this topic.
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battlematt
Apprentice Douchebag
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Post by battlematt on Oct 23, 2018 21:05:46 GMT -8
I loved this episode as well, and will listen to it again. I have had a rather diverse group over the last couple of years, and I have found that women tend to hold back in conversations a lot more (even veteran players), whereas males are used to just blurting out whatever comes on their minds, often interrupting whomever that was talking. It's been especially difficult to get the teen girl in our group to feel confident enough to take space, even though she is a great roleplayer.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2018 21:32:19 GMT -8
Do an experiment for me. Replace the word men with women in your post and see if you can still look at yourself in the mirror after you say it.
You know what, fuck it. I'll say what I really want to say. This thread disgusts me. How dare you talk about inclusion then tell people to step aside. All lives do matter. A fair standard of treatment applies to everyone.
A lot of the content above is flat out offensive and I'll be reporting it as such.
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battlematt
Apprentice Douchebag
Posts: 74
Preferred Game Systems: Rules light & intuitive
Currently Running: Nuttin.
Favorite Species of Monkey: Spanked
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Post by battlematt on Oct 24, 2018 2:06:22 GMT -8
So by your reasoning, the people who don't have the drive or disposition to cut through the noise only have themselves to blame?
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Post by EricaOdd on Oct 24, 2018 2:38:30 GMT -8
If you're already being inclusive and not gatekeeping based on ethnicity, gender, gender expression, sexual preference, religion, or any other of a multitude of things people do often gatekeep over, then the message of inclusion and to "get out of the way" is not meant for you. Those messages are meant for someone who *would* stand in the way.
In a perfect world, these messages would not be necessary. This world is far from perfect, and people do still gatekeep.
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
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Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
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Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Oct 24, 2018 2:45:25 GMT -8
The only issue that I take with this is that this is how you should be treating all of your players, regardless of their gender. I feel like you're "all lives matter"-ing this topic. Of course, all lives do matter, but just as it’s mostly black guys that get shot by white cops in the US. So it is that it’s mostly women who get shut out of conversations at gaming shops or their arses grabbed a conventions or whatever. And because it’s mostly white cis guys who populate those environments, it’s up to us white cis guys to work extra hard on not cutting anyone out of the conversation, grabbing anyone’s arses or whatever might be seen as exclusionary. Now here’s a thing, I don’t grab arses and I try not to talk over people. But I have noticed that when I do occasionally talk over people, it turns out the person I am talking over is a woman. And when I look at an arse and think, “boy, that’s a tasty looking arse, I sure would like to grab a piece of that” it always turns out to be a woman’s arse I’m looking at. I need to internally acknolowge what I am doing/thinking, apologise if it’s appropriate and try extra hard not to talk over people. I also need to remember that it isn’t done to grab any arse (except my wife’s at appropriately sexy times, obviously 😀). I occasionally have to apologise to men too for talking over them (but weirdly I am never tempted to grab their arse... well mostly never). So sure ayslyn it’s how we should be treating all our fellow gamers, but it’s still always worth reminding ourselves when welcoming a person who might be in a minority (and for that reason feeling a little uncomfortable) to the table.
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Post by ayslyn on Oct 24, 2018 5:30:35 GMT -8
I am at work and only have my phone here, so I am constrained in my time and ability to provide a detailed response.
Suffice to say that your experience is not mine. Seriously. I don’t care what is between someone’s legs, what color their skin is, or who they prefer to have consensual sex with. I treat them all with the respect their actions deserve. If you’re a decent person , I will treat you like a decent person; if you’re an asshole....
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fredrix
Master Douchebag
Posts: 2,142
Preferred Game Systems: Fate, L5R, Pendragon, Gumshoe, Feng Shui
Currently Playing: Pendragon, Song of Ice and Fire, L5R, Feng Shui, Traveller
Currently Running: Fate, Coriolis, Nights Black Agents
Favorite Species of Monkey: 1970's NTV, dubbed by the BBC (though The Water Margin beats it)
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Post by fredrix on Oct 24, 2018 5:45:01 GMT -8
Well obviously, you are not the problem 🙂
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Post by OFTHEHILLPEOPLE on Oct 24, 2018 5:52:05 GMT -8
If you're already being inclusive and not gatekeeping based on ethnicity, gender, gender expression, sexual preference, religion, or any other of a multitude of things people do often gatekeep over, then the message of inclusion and to "get out of the way" is not meant for you. Those messages are meant for someone who *would* stand in the way. In a perfect world, these messages would not be necessary. This world is far from perfect, and people do still gatekeep. Exactly my point, and ayslyn is right too, in a perfect world everyone should be treated equally. But here we are talking about people grabbing butts at cons and treating others like they're less than human. My point is also to be aware of those moments at Cons and to make room for that acceptance. If people are coming to a con with the idea that they already have two strikes against them then maybe try to be that ambassador. If you see butt grabbing and groping, say something. Let everyone at the table have a voice and make sure they aren't talked over. Apologize if you accidentally mansplain (I do it to my wife all the time and I don't even realize it, apologize and do better). Be friendly, not creepy.
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Post by uncommonman on Oct 24, 2018 8:03:53 GMT -8
You can treat everyone equal but still make sure to include the persons that are more quiet/don't take up space.
One problem that is real and sometimes happen is that people over-compensate and start giving some people a different experience, the most obvious example is "the GM's girlfriend" where one player can't fail in anything they do or say.
Everyone should try to be inclusive and get more people into this hobby no matter if they are female, minority race, a jock or a cishet white male.
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