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Post by Stu Venable on Oct 31, 2018 13:38:14 GMT -8
It seems like the most common definition of "sandbox RPG" is "RPG, as long as it isn't rail-roady," in otherwords, a good game.
-_-
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willh
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 220
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Post by willh on Oct 31, 2018 13:39:47 GMT -8
Speaking of APAP.... When is it coming back??? Thank you! Unfortunately we will not be returning. One of our hosts now lives in the Midwest, and even before that, scheduling conflicts made consistent play an impossibility.
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willh
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 220
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Post by willh on Oct 31, 2018 13:43:50 GMT -8
It seems like the most common definition of "sandbox RPG" is "RPG, as long as it isn't rail-roady," in otherwords, a good game. -_- I would say it's a little more than just not rail-roady. On a scale of 1-10, one being a frustrated writer who forces you to act out his novel, 10 being let's open a strip bar, I would say a "sand box game" falls in the 8-10 range.
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Post by weaselcreature on Oct 31, 2018 14:14:32 GMT -8
"Actual Play," I believe, is used to differentiate a radio-style production of a game (like The Curse of Silverlake) where they played a game, then made a produced story out of it(but you're not hearing them actually play) versus what the Jackers do. The term Actual Play comes from forum discussions about games, in the days before podcasts, or at least before podcasts were as big as they are now. Actual play was a discussion of a game based on a specific example of actually playing it, as opposed to discussion based purely on having read the rules and theorizing how things will work out. There would generally be both discussion on the fictional events in game, and how the rules interacted with those events. This is why my old podcast was called Actual People, Actual Play, even though we never once played our games on the mics. When people started recording game sessions for podcasts, the name Actual Play was applied to this format. There was some griping about how that shouldn't be the case, because they didn't include the same stuff as the written actual plays. None of that griping matters now. The name stuck for the podcast format. I think I just got "Well, actually" 'd (or is that Will Actually'd?). ;D
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Post by Forresst on Oct 31, 2018 19:02:14 GMT -8
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battlematt
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Post by battlematt on Nov 1, 2018 1:08:51 GMT -8
I used to frequent another forum that had a very similar discussion (although significantly less civil) about the terms "railroad" and "railroading". I feel that this term is even more loose than "sandbox" and that people use it rather haphazardly for situations in which there are limited options for a player. One memorable quote was "this is NOT railroading! It is linear storytelling!!!" I think it's kind futile to expect people to use any of the terms "railroad", "sandbox", or "GMPC" in a unified manner; at least until someone with a bit of weight in the RPG world decides to define them in a medium that reaches wider circles. I just had an idea: invite Ken and Robin to Skype into the show to discuss it on an episode. That might make some ripples.
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Post by Fiona on Nov 1, 2018 12:04:53 GMT -8
'Sandbox' is a term I learned more from video gaming than tabletop and it was usually associated with open world titles. It conjures to mind a wide open space with plot points and moving parts scattered around. I guess if you want to differentiate them, a sandbox would be an open world with multiple 'attractions' that are already in place and planned out, while an open-world would be a game where the attractions are wherever the PCs make them.
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Post by azhreivep on Nov 2, 2018 4:12:56 GMT -8
Apparently we just have cooler sandboxes out here than in California. As a kid, I don't think I ever ran into one that didn't have at least a handful of toys, shovels and/or buckets to give you something to do other than throw sand in people's eyes.
... Not that that stopped me, mind you.
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Post by joecrak on Nov 5, 2018 4:19:06 GMT -8
Here's our common definition as defined by Wikipedia, a thouroghly accepted site by college professors and the like:
"sandbox game A game in which the player has been freed from traditional video game structure and direction, and instead chooses what, when, and how they want to approach the available content. The term alludes to a child's sandbox without rules, with play based on open-ended choice. While some sandbox games may include building and creative activities, they are not required. Sandbox games generally employ an open world setting to facilitate the player's freedom of choice."
And here's their definition of open world
"open world A game world that the player may freely traverse, rather than being restricted to certain pre-defined areas. While 'open world' and 'sandbox' are sometimes used interchangeably, the terms refer to different concepts and are not synonymous"
Definitions of words change over time, as more uses become a thing in public and repeated use, so while something may not have been used to describe something a few decades ago, it now can, as language evolves.
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bobcatt
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Post by bobcatt on Nov 5, 2018 13:34:15 GMT -8
My $0.02 CAD = $ 0.0152569 USD
At a time when the most advanced (arguably) computer adventure game was Zork, our group used the term 'sandbox' to differentiate our RPG style from running one or more commercially available modules. 'Open World' wasn't a term we'd heard (I didn't hear it myself until the late 2000s). In our setting(s), the players were free to move anywhere and take any actions they desired. Greyhawk or Mystara could be sandboxes as readily as a custom world because the players could do what they wanted within the limits of the raw materials available. Constraints were geographical, planar, and temporal until they had either the equipment or spells to move beyond.
When I was GMing, the NPC inhabitants had their own goals and were involved in their own conflicts. Plot hooks were not explicitly defined items; world events were merely occurring at a set pace and PCs could involve themselves or not as they saw fit. If they decided to suddenly attack the town watch, negative consequences would follow. Conversely if they decided that the roving Ogre bands were getting on their nerves and moved to eliminate them, a different series of events would arise. I'd have to react to their choices in real time, drawing from the prepared notes and conjuring up any missing elements to fill in the gaps. PC actions would modify NPC plans and timelines. I found it stressful more often than not.
This arrangement never resulted in a wholly satisfactory outcome for either the players or myself. Momentum and interest would simply peter out. Without one or more over-arching plots to engage and motivate the players as a unit, they would inevitably become bored. A plot can be introduced without resorting to 'linear storytelling', though.
To mangle the metaphor, there's nothing fundamentally wrong with riding a railroad to get from point A (chargen) to point B, C, or D (a variety of epic or tragic finales) as long as the passengers (PCs) are allowed to hop on and off the train when the mood strikes, and they are allowed to explore the branch lines and intermediate stops along the way. Players are able to bypass places/events and retrace their steps later (or not). The sum total of their actions (and inactions) will dictate how the tale eventually ends.
I don't do campaign play anymore and I'm not a novelist. I'm able to run the odd 4-hour con game. At most, I write a beginning and several intermediate scenes which advance the initial premise. The players interact with the material and, in doing so, alter it. I try to ensure that everyone has chances to contribute meaningfully as the story unfolds. We reach an endpoint together. Sometimes it's amazing.
Without a destination of some sort, it could be argued that there's no point in starting a journey in the first place. If the players have no compelling reason(s) to act, what have they to look forward to? Aren't they merely killing time? To me (now), offering the players some cool things to pursue within a well defined (if limited) setting is superior to what I understand to be a 'sandbox' situation.
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Post by uncommonman on Nov 6, 2018 7:05:12 GMT -8
I don't think people is disagreeing as much about sandbox/open world as much as what a "plot hook" is.
There's the world and things happen in it.
If the gm have made plot hooks that will trigger events if the players pick them up I would say it is a open world game.
If thinks happen despite the players changing things it is a sandbox even if the gm has added plot hooks that can make the players interested in interacting with things/people/events.
Skyrim has events that only happen when the players come to town (open world) minecraft has places that go on as planned unless the player initiate change (sandbox).
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bobcatt
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Post by bobcatt on Nov 6, 2018 16:19:24 GMT -8
I ran it so that the NPCs and monsters went ahead with their own plans according to a predetermined timeline unless the characters directly interfered or caused some sort of ripple effect due to their group's activities. I guess that makes it a sandbox.
There was no need to create deliberate hooks to elicit interaction, initially. Poking their noses into other people's business was a natural act for my group. They would happily bumble about in the towns and wilderness doing whatever tickled their fancy. Where it all fell down was that the world I documented was pedestrian and boring. It wasn't on the verge of being plunged into a conventional war, or swarmed by the goblin, orc, & ogre races, or ground under the heel of a demon lord. Nothing worthy of an epic adventure was mapped out; it was all relatively mundane because I envisioned a stable state at the outset. My bad.
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Post by uncommonman on Nov 7, 2018 7:12:28 GMT -8
I ran it so that the NPCs and monsters went ahead with their own plans according to a predetermined timeline unless the characters directly interfered or caused some sort of ripple effect due to their group's activities. I guess that makes it a sandbox. There was no need to create deliberate hooks to elicit interaction, initially. Poking their noses into other people's business was a natural act for my group. They would happily bumble about in the towns and wilderness doing whatever tickled their fancy. Where it all fell down was that the world I documented was pedestrian and boring. It wasn't on the verge of being plunged into a conventional war, or swarmed by the goblin, orc, & ogre races, or ground under the heel of a demon lord. Nothing worthy of an epic adventure was mapped out; it was all relatively mundane because I envisioned a stable state at the outset. My bad. I would have loved to play in that world and I think many other players would agree. But I think "stable but could be pushed over" is a good way to make a sandbox. The rulers of the country is bad but of the pc's don't do anything there won't be a revolution. The orcs tribes are close but not united so they don't invade. The dark lord is slowly building his power but nothing has unearthed the needed artifact yet. I need to get a fantasy game going.
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andreasdavour
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Post by andreasdavour on Nov 11, 2018 5:34:10 GMT -8
I think the classic old campaign with one tent pole dungeon you delved into every session is where the sandbox started in tabletop roleplaying. You could have different reasons for going into the dungeon, or maybe items or specific monsters to kill, but the plot hook was always "there's gold and adventure down there!"
Then I bet the term came along after the fact.
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viscounteric
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Post by viscounteric on Nov 11, 2018 23:29:06 GMT -8
I think the classic old campaign with one tent pole dungeon you delved into every session is where the sandbox started in tabletop roleplaying. You could have different reasons for going into the dungeon, or maybe items or specific monsters to kill, but the plot hook was always "there's gold and adventure down there!" Then I bet the term came along after the fact. No. Seriously, no one ever played with a sandbox in the military to discuss tactics? A little water and a trowel or small rake and you can quickly change the terrain you're working with. In the pre-Gygaxian era, it was a small, but fun faction of wargamers, who actually transferred their use of sandboxes in the military into their civilian hobby. Haven't seen one in action since 2012, but it's great fun. Sandbox RPGs have evolved from a campaign relying on the most recent incarnation of the rules, a copy of Wilderness Survival, and the table building a story, even if it's wandering around a dungeon/wilderness/etc. Nowadays, I guess Open Ended is the buzzword, but it's the same fun.
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