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Post by Kainguru on Jul 27, 2012 15:22:39 GMT -8
(nb: on a personal level and for the record I hate anti immigration sentiments and cultural elitism - its irrational, counter productive and antithetical to humanity's positive social development . . . I just hate Drizzt clones that's all (and dragonborn, and war forged, but especially dragonborn - I think I'd die of apoplexy if I encountered a player dragonborn Drizzt clone) ) Great idea, though I think you'd hate my D&D group. We haven't a single classic D&D race. I'm a changing, our mage is Eladrin (who hates elves), our cleric is Dragonborn, we've also got a Warforged. We never planned it, but we all seemed to have decided that the new races were far more interesting to us all and the old ones were bogged down with far to many cliches. Also when our DM had us face Drow it was in a massive forest high up in the trees where an elven town was built. We found the best way to deal with drow was to have the dragonborne bullrush them and toss them from the tree tops. We sent many a Drizzt clone out for flying lessons during that arc. My problem with the newer races is humanity. Humans are, or should be dominant. It's bad enough balancing humans against the standard races and making them attractive to play without suddenly empowering humans with innate messiah like abilities. The newer races just make it harder to keep that balance. If however you're playing a high fantasy campaign with low human influence then fine . . . it's just not my personal default.
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Post by Stu Venable on Jul 27, 2012 15:29:38 GMT -8
Gygax: The whiners claiming my dungeons are "killer" are likely not very clever in their play. Perhaps they prefer play-acting to thinking and assuming an heroic persona bent on action and adventure.
That all of the dungeons I designed were play-tested, and the play-test groups had a high survival rate gives the lie to assertions to the contrary. The only dungeon I designed to be nearly impossible to defeat was the Tomb of Horrors. Failure to survive the others stems from bad luck, or more probably, bad dungeoneering skills.
Those that complain about real challenges might be better off playing Candyland with their little sister That's taken verbatim from his Q&A at ENworld. This is the kind of statement I'm talking about. I neither met or interacted directly with the man. I only have the words he left behind, and the tone of these words certainly doesn't describe the kind of game I like to run. This smacks of the "nope, you didn't come up with my solution, so you fail" attitude, does it not? In my games (as others will attest), I often prefer play-acting to thinking. I often run games where one of the major dynamics at play at the table are the flaws of the characters the players portray. Very often, these flaws will manifest in ways that will complicate or set back the "party's goal" in major ways. With regards to "Player Skill not Character Ability." No, that is not what I meant. I said these concepts should not be taken dogmatically. I gave one example where a player who is socially inept wants to play a social character. And in your answer to my example, aren't you just giving another example as to why this concept shouldn't be approached dogmatically? I'm not sure where we're disagreeing here... The rules of any game system are there to ensure fair adjudication, and I don't necessarily think only Douchey DMs need those boundaries. Otherwise, we wouldn't need any rules, would we? There is a *game* portion to role-playing games that people on my side of the "roll vs. role" argument often forget. Games are fun, and without the rules, they cease to be games and become collaborative improv exercises (which can be fun too). And I would contend there are times when even the best GM can lose impartiality and perspective or allow biases to insinuate their way into his or her thinking.
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 27, 2012 16:18:22 GMT -8
I can't disagree with the statement made by GG as sounding very strong but it is a little out of context. What GG was most often rebelling against was the trend at the time to scale everything down to the players (not the characters) level . . . Which definitely got to the point by the mind 2000's where if there was a single PC death you were a bastard and not following the rules properly . . . A total absence of challenge. It wasn't just an attitude reflected in RPG's either it was everywhere - everyone gets a prize, everyone wins, everyone has a professional qualification (that one galls me personally . . . Given the time, money and effort I put into getting two professional qualifications which then demand I pay both their respective professional bodies each year for the privilege of saying I'm qualified) . . . but that time is passing as the pendulum swings back to the rational centre. What GG was referring to was the mindset that discouraged stretching player imagination and creativity by finding solutions to challenges. He says that play test groups solved his dungeons NOT that they solved it in the "correct" way . . . In other articles he often mused about the unexpected manner and application of lateral thinking his own group of players surprised him with . . . Much of early GreyHawk canon comes from those very same 'left field' moments. Robert Kuntz even wrote an article about how he and GG totally fucked up Dave Arnesons City of the Gods adventure . . . They failed miserably and were lucky to get out alive but still caulked it up as win because they enjoyed it, had fun and the fuck up was mainly due to them both playing to their characters rather than the meta game. Again most of my interaction with GG was much later on and very brief . . . Troll Lord forums might still hold some of his later expositions as they were the last company he worked with before his untimely death. In those forums his attitude was not at all as many people believe he was . . . He didn't come across as arseburgers or socially awkward at all . . . He did have a great fondness for many newer RPG's including D&D 3.x. Interestingly he did disclose that prior to being expelled from TSR he had been negotiating with Steve Jackson Games over various licensing opportunities designed to help grow both the market and the hobby . . . He was also a fan of pulp fantasy he preferred a world of ordinary persons made extraordinary by virtue of their choices (eg: Fritz Liebers Fafherd and the Gray Mouser . . . Had they paid the Lankhmar Thieves Guild it's due there wouldn't have been much of a story to tell )
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Post by Kainguru on Jul 28, 2012 2:02:17 GMT -8
PPS: I believe GG's reference to play-acting was meant in the context of exactly the sort of RP'er we all complain about: the meta gamer, the player who doesn't RP except when it comes to rolling dice, the jerk wad we're all familiar with at the gaming table (eg the terrible twins or as I'd prefer to call them Satan's conjoined arse follicles)
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andreasdavour
Patron (Supporter)
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Preferred Game Systems: M0, Savage Worlds, Over the Edge, Warhammer FRP 1st ed.
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Post by andreasdavour on Aug 3, 2012 12:15:14 GMT -8
I don't think you should conflate Gary Gygax with the whole of the OSR crowd. He was often quite grumpy and contrary and he never ever admitted being wrong, even when he had changed his mind. He was quite a character. I'm not sure I would have liked him, had I met him. Another point I'd like to make is that Matthew Finch and others have noted that the the primer is a bit long in the tooth, and sometimes misses the mark. I do think Stu is right in his observation though, that many people think D&D is the only rpg there is. That counts for both OSR people and others. Regarding the greater OSR crowd, where I'd like to include myself, there's a big interest in the history of the hobby and how the games used to be played. I think the onus here is on how creativity used to be the key, and how everything started to be delineated when AD&D and tournament play came around. Personally I explore the Old Ways using T&T. I think these days the games that are considered "old school" are many. Great Old Ones like Sandy Petersen, Greg Stafford, Ken St Andre and Dave Arnesson are interesting (as is Gygax) because the hobby looked different then and it's fun to know where we came from. It's more than nostalgia. -- theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com (old schoold, new school and all there is in between)
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 5, 2012 2:27:59 GMT -8
I don't think you should conflate Gary Gygax with the whole of the OSR crowd. He was often quite grumpy and contrary and he never ever admitted being wrong, even when he had changed his mind. He was quite a character. I'm not sure I would have liked him, had I met him. Another point I'd like to make is that Matthew Finch and others have noted that the the primer is a bit long in the tooth, and sometimes misses the mark. I do think Stu is right in his observation though, that many people think D&D is the only rpg there is. That counts for both OSR people and others. Regarding the greater OSR crowd, where I'd like to include myself, there's a big interest in the history of the hobby and how the games used to be played. I think the onus here is on how creativity used to be the key, and how everything started to be delineated when AD&D and tournament play came around. Personally I explore the Old Ways using T&T. I think these days the games that are considered "old school" are many. Great Old Ones like Sandy Petersen, Greg Stafford, Ken St Andre and Dave Arnesson are interesting (as is Gygax) because the hobby looked different then and it's fun to know where we came from. It's more than nostalgia. -- theomnipotenteye.blogspot.com (old schoold, new school and all there is in between) I always got the impression that he was grumpy because of the whole TSR debacle and the bad aftertaste it left him with. TSR when it folded still owed him considerable amounts of money which he never received . . . combine that with various players assuming he was wealthy because of his reputation (when he clearly wasn't . . . ie: fundraising needed for commemorative statue) I think I'd be pretty grumpy too. But he would take the time to answer queries . . . My exposure/correspondence was mainly to do with advice on overcoming that age old prejudice D&D = Satanist !!! I has been shocked after all those years to be directly confronted with it (again), it did result in a resumption if my gaming hiatus until recently (thanks to HJ's). GG was very supportive and his advice was sound. I also noted that his big concern with D&D 3.x was that in many respects it was an uncomfortable melding of a class based system and a skills based system: he preferred one it the other, mainly because if concerns about certain skill rolls detracting from the role playing. His compromise in class based systems, for socially inept players with social characters, was the ability check . . . ie charisma check rather than a persuade skill.
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andreasdavour
Patron (Supporter)
Posts: 257
Preferred Game Systems: M0, Savage Worlds, Over the Edge, Warhammer FRP 1st ed.
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Currently Running: Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate
Favorite Species of Monkey: Llama
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Post by andreasdavour on Aug 5, 2012 6:15:19 GMT -8
Reading the stuff he wrote in the early Dragon magazines I think he was quite grumpy even before being ousted from TSR.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 5, 2012 6:48:04 GMT -8
Reading the stuff he wrote in the early Dragon magazines I think he was quite grumpy even before being ousted from TSR. If its early 1980's the trouble had already started . . . It commences with the death of Blume snr which precipitates the involvement of Blume jnr's and ends with Lorraine. TSR was a troubled workplace for a very long time by all accounts . . . Funny as kids TSR was the one company we'd all have leapt at the chance to join, but now as an adult I know I would have hated it . . .
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andreasdavour
Patron (Supporter)
Posts: 257
Preferred Game Systems: M0, Savage Worlds, Over the Edge, Warhammer FRP 1st ed.
Currently Playing: None
Currently Running: Wandering Heroes of Ogre Gate
Favorite Species of Monkey: Llama
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Post by andreasdavour on Aug 5, 2012 6:53:32 GMT -8
I'm pretty sure you are correct about it being a crazy place. I'm not sure I'd like it in the "good" days...
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 5, 2012 9:01:43 GMT -8
I'm pretty sure you are correct about it being a crazy place. I'm not sure I'd like it in the "good" days... There is a TSR Alumni group on LinkedIn.... I would find it interesting to have an interview with some of those older cats. You know, to get their opinion on "OSR." Darlene, The map lady, is there as are others. If the podcast is interested, the group admin for TSR Alumni might pass along a message on their discussion forum. See what happens. I have heard some really fun stories about TSR. But they would be better shared from the first person perspective rather than hearsay. Some of those guys can belt back a few beers too!
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 5, 2012 9:25:59 GMT -8
I'm pretty sure you are correct about it being a crazy place. I'm not sure I'd like it in the "good" days... There is a TSR Alumni group on LinkedIn.... I would find it interesting to have an interview with some of those older cats. You know, to get their opinion on "OSR." Darlene, The map lady, is there as are others. If the podcast is interested, the group admin for TSR Alumni might pass along a message on their discussion forum. See what happens. I have heard some really fun stories about TSR. But they would be better shared from the first person perspective rather than hearsay. Some of those guys can belt back a few beers too! Darlene was active a few years ago with Troll Lords : she did the maps for GG's castle zagyg setting book (located near the free city of Dunfalcon . . . I kid you not). Rob Kuntz produced a module for it . . . 'old school' but using newer mechanics. Never got to see the now pulped Upper Ruins . . . £250+ on eBay!!! That's a bit rich even for interest sake (would it be a breach of copyright to reproduce if it's no longer available because the license was withdrawn following GG's death ie GG Enterprises concentrating on his memorial as a priority) To that end mongoose was going reprint ledjendary . . . But the arrangement was never finalised so that also remains on hiatus.
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