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Post by Kainguru on Aug 12, 2012 1:58:02 GMT -8
To continue the judge analogy, the only time that a judge is the law is when there is no other legal code. Not even Judge Dredd fits this description, as all Judges are trained at the Academy of Law; they have a unified code to refer to though they may all interpret it differently. For a judge to be the law, there have to be no other laws. For a GM to be the system, there has to be no other system. Totally off topic but as a Judge Dredd fanboy since his first appearance in prog 2 of 2000ad (1977 what a year) that's not quite true. Judge Dredd is an out and out fascist . . . He is the Law because it's his city and his legal code and on many many occasions Dredd has broken the written Law to serve what he considers a Lawful end. Prior to necropolis Dredd spends many months doubting the law as written leading to the long walk and his return as The Dead Man. After necropolis he confronts the returned but insane Chief Judge McGruder because he believes her actions to be irresponsible . . . Starting with him sabotaging the Mechismo project. Earlier on returning from the Cursed Earth Saga he refuses to abide by the edicts of Chief Judge Cal and leads a resistance against said Cal. He frequently ignores the orders of the Council and often holds the Judges presiding on such in contempt . . . Though he always remains loyal to the Chief Judge provided that Judge is worthy of his loyalty. During the Judge Child saga he sacrifices another judge in pursuit of his goal and then ignores his orders from the council at its conclusion - choosing to abandon the Judge Child Owen Krysler because he sees that he is corrupt. There is no other Law to Judge Dredd but his Law, he frequently takes his Law to other mega cities and ignores their conventions in pursuit of his agenda and goals . . . He nuked east meg one (knowing it was full of innocent citizens) in response to the apocalypse war. He frequently sojourns to Brit Cit and ignores their requests to observe not interfere. He has broken the sovereign status of Hondo City and participated in regime change in South America. Out of politeness only did he lower his lawgiver and let Chopper escape to the Oz rad back when challenged by an Oz Conurb Judge. Dredd is a clone of Fargo the father of justice and therefore inherently flawed . . . As attested by Fargo and Rico . . . IMHO his adherence to the Law is in fact due to him resisting his baser instincts. Previously he resisted the pro democracy movement then supported it as an idea . . . Pushing for elections . . . He enforced the anti mutant laws until challenged on a personal level leading to his effectively blackmailing the council into repealing those laws. A judge is a judge because s/he is both enforcer and administrator of Justice through the Law . . . That is really what Dredd is about Justice despite the Law with his famous 'Dredds Comportment' being a how to guide in dispensing Justice (he's still a fascist though at least UK Judges are openly corrupt, Oz Judges are part time volunteers and Hondo City Judges get all bushido with ultra cool gadgets . . . Oh and Emerald Isle Judges drink a lot). PS I could rant for pages on Dredd lore, the d20 version of the Dredd RPG has been trumped by the traveller version. The original Games Workshop Dredd is hard to get but not as flawed as most reviewers would have it - most of the criticisms are due to the reviewers misunderstanding Dredds world and assuming that it's part super hero and all PC's will be like contemporary Dredd from the outset (eventually they could but they've got to survive 20+ years on the streets in game time to earn that right and the streets are deadly . . . Dredd is what he is because he has survived)
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HyveMynd
Supporter
Dirty hippie, PbtA, Fate, & Cortex Prime <3er
Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
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Currently Running: The Sprawl
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Post by HyveMynd on Aug 12, 2012 19:32:33 GMT -8
Totally off topic but as a Judge Dredd fanboy... Sorry there kainguru. The entirety of my Judge Dredd knowledge comes from two sources; the 1995 Sylvester Stallone movie (which actually isn't all that terrible) and the D20 Mongoose game (which I picked up for $1 at my LFGS). I was under the assumption that there was some organization above Judge Dredd that established a code all street judges followed. Maybe a better example would be the Marshals from the Degenesis game setting. Each marshal carries a small printed book, called the testament, containing the words and thoughts of the founder of their order. Each marshal interprets these writings slightly differently, but each book is identical to the others. That's how I see the relationship between the system and the GM of an RPG.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 12, 2012 22:03:59 GMT -8
Totally off topic but as a Judge Dredd fanboy... Sorry there kainguru. The entirety of my Judge Dredd knowledge comes from two sources; the 1995 Sylvester Stallone movie (which actually isn't all that terrible) and the D20 Mongoose game (which I picked up for $1 at my LFGS). I was under the assumption that there was some organization above Judge Dredd that established a code all street judges followed. Maybe a better example would be the Marshals from the Degenesis game setting. Each marshal carries a small printed book, called the testament, containing the words and thoughts of the founder of their order. Each marshal interprets these writings slightly differently, but each book is identical to the others. That's how I see the relationship between the system and the GM of an RPG. The movie wasn't that bad it just wasn't Dredd . . . The angel gang and the city were just right . . . Except for the unexplained missing scene, 'here come the clones' suddenly the building is blowing up around them with no explanation and nothing happens with the clones?? It's a mystery that has haunted 2000ad since 1995 . . . A scene is just missing no stock footage nothing? There is an organisation it's the council of 5 who decide law and amend it as required. Like today when different precedents change how the law is enforced. It's just that the laws can be flawed and therefore need to be 'adjusted' to obtain justice . . . A perp might get off on a technicality but only once and judges can and will override civil liberties to get the evidence required.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 13, 2012 2:37:00 GMT -8
In fact if you follow this link it segways into a very good example of the discussion in this thread: forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?541105-Games-workshop-Judge-Dredd-RPGJudge Dredd is a well established universe with a set canon, mood and atmosphere. So far there have been 3 systems that have tackled it - GW bespoke, d20 and Traveller . . . In the link above is a 3 page argument about which of the 3 systems best fits. The conclusion is that it depends on the play style, expectations and implementation of the system by the individual groups concerned. Some favour traveller, some favour GW, some favour d20 but in each case it's about opinion and expectation. I agreed several commentators because they point out that the GW beginning Judges are very ineffective because they are in the comics (ie the pages are frequently littered with the corpses of junior street judges - Dredd survives because he is a Senior Street Judge); however there are those groups that dislike it because they want to start play as Senior Street Judges to get straight into the nitty gritty of Dredd's world as they perceive it - then it becomes an argument of Traveller vs d20. Another person on the thread then dismisses all arguments citing that the GW version was the only version for years and that it was fun at the time because all he wanted was to play in the Dredd universe . . . ie Dredd is Dredd no matter the system. So does system matter?, yes if it matters to the group . . . no if it doesn't matter to the group . . . yes if house ruling is not considered 'system authentic' (so to speak) . . . No if house ruling is considered a normal part of any system . . .
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Post by jazzisblues on Aug 13, 2012 6:33:45 GMT -8
But again, at what point do you stop playing that shitty system? When your group has ignored or modified 25% of the RAW? 50%? 90%? If you're tossing out most of the system to make it fun and enjoyable, why stay with that system? Well, let me turn that question around: If you've modified 90% of the RAW and the result is that the system is now fun and enjoyable for your group, why would you not keep playing it? I mean, you now have something tailored exactly to your group's taste, and which works! A group might search for years and not find anything that fits them that perfectly out of the box. We tend to overlook the practical reasons on this thread and assume that the person doing the choosing has unlimited time to assimilate new systems, money to buy them, and access to the material. That's not true for everyone. Consider, for example, the teenager with a small allowance (but loads of imagination and free time) who has to make do with a set of hand-me-down books in a single system. But Pathfinder is a subsystem of the genre-neutral D20 system. Do you think you could not run a satisfactory pulp detective mystery game in a D20 system? All the other systems you compare are universal (GURPS, Hero, Savage Worlds). This strikes me a bit like using the fact that Granny Smith apples aren't as sweet as oranges or bananas to prove that apples in general are not a sweet fruit. Now, if you do think it is not possible to run a pulp detective mystery game in any D20-based system, then that's another matter. Actually, I can and have used d20 to run all manner of different games in the past. It would really be a more accurate characterization of my opinion that I'm making an apple pie, I could use Granny Smith apples, I could use some other kind of apples. The question is not are apples a sweet fruit, but rather will the apples that I use give me the flavor of apple pie that I want at the moment. I'm not making a value judgement about whether d20 is a good system or not because that's going to depend a great deal on who's commenting. For my purposes it's a perfectly good system, just not the one I tend to gravitate towards in the games that I'm running right now. At no point have I made the assertion that I couldn't run a perfectly good pulp detective mystery (for example) using d20, quite the contrary. The only caveat I place on that statement is, "How much effort am I going to have to put into tweaking the rules (not to be able to play a detective pulp mystery game because for me that's a foregone conclusion) to get the flavor of resolution that I want for this game, and is there a different game system that would give me that more easily? Am I making any more sense now? JiB
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 13, 2012 8:48:16 GMT -8
Yes much clearer . . . But it all presupposes what expectations you bring to the table and the system . . . Mention d20 and people assume a certain type of RP structure and flavour when, as noted its actually very neutral at its heart - the d20 being a simple resolution mechanic like d100 or d10 die pool or 2d6 . . . It's the fluff added to the basic mechanic that gives flavour. Universal systems really only differ from genre specific systems by either providing no fluff at its heart (modular supplements providing flavour) eg BRP or loads of fluff where the flavour is usually determined by a process of omission (so to speak) eg Hero. The effort is difficult with d20 because it's hard to find an explicitly raw d20 system sans fluff. Thus the problem of effort why create fluff when someone can do it for you letting you get on with scenario design
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Post by jazzisblues on Aug 13, 2012 10:50:17 GMT -8
Yes much clearer . . . But it all presupposes what expectations you bring to the table and the system . . . Mention d20 and people assume a certain type of RP structure and flavour when, as noted its actually very neutral at its heart - the d20 being a simple resolution mechanic like d100 or d10 die pool or 2d6 . . . It's the fluff added to the basic mechanic that gives flavour. Universal systems really only differ from genre specific systems by either providing no fluff at its heart (modular supplements providing flavour) eg BRP or loads of fluff where the flavour is usually determined by a process of omission (so to speak) eg Hero. The effort is difficult with d20 because it's hard to find an explicitly raw d20 system sans fluff. Thus the problem of effort why create fluff when someone can do it for you letting you get on with scenario design That is a very apt statement. If what we now call d20 had been published without the intrinsic fluff of the AD&D game we might have a very different view. I think that Hero sometimes suffers a similar penalty because it is so associated with playing Super Heroes games. (Which interestingly I've never run a supers game in anything much less in Hero) My only gripe with the d20 system is that as magic wielding characters advance in level they do more and more damage with each attack but the intrinsic damage of a weapon never changes. This disparity leads to the escalation of magic items in d20 games (imho). Cheers, JiB
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johanb
Initiate Douchebag
Posts: 2
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Post by johanb on Aug 13, 2012 11:45:59 GMT -8
I’m kind of new on the forum, but a long time listener to the podcast.
As a system nerd I’m getting really excited with these kinds of topics, so I’m jumping right in to give my view in this matter.
In my opinion, system matters a lot. I’m kind of an Indie/Hippie –game fan boy and as such I’ve played and read a lot of games that really strives to invoke a special tone or feeling in the game by their rules.
The more general systems out there, d2o, SW, BRP, and GURPS etc. can do a lot of things ok, but they don’t do anything great. I’ve been in many games when we have used (in my opinion) a bad system for what we wanted the game to be. Still we had a lot of fun with it, or should I say despite all the flaws of the system we had fun. If we had played a game more suited to what we wanted we might not had have more fun, but It would have been easier to reach this level of fun. The system would have made less resistance to us having fun.
If you have a campaign or adventure in mind, as a GM you should ask yourself: What is the focus of the game we are going to play. Which aspects of game play do I want the rules to handle well (h2h-combat, social, space fights, etc.). And then you ask: How do I want my players to behave?
If you can find a game that handles both the rule aspect and have an in game mechanic to reward the desired behavior from the players, then you are good.
The best reward systems out there are (IMO) Beliefs/Instincts/Goal/Traits – Fate/Persona/Deeds in Burning Wheel/Mouse Guard and Keys - XP in The Shadow of Yesterday/Solar System/Lady Blackbird and Fallout in Dogs in the Vineyard.
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Post by henryhankovitch on Aug 13, 2012 15:13:57 GMT -8
Yes much clearer . . . But it all presupposes what expectations you bring to the table and the system . . . Mention d20 and people assume a certain type of RP structure and flavour when, as noted its actually very neutral at its heart - the d20 being a simple resolution mechanic like d100 or d10 die pool or 2d6 . . . It's the fluff added to the basic mechanic that gives flavour. D20 as a system is more than just "roll a d20 against a target number. It includes the race/class/level structure, incremental stat bonuses, AC instead of DR, abstracted HP, no hit locations, and so on. These things are common to most D20 games out there, and give us a set of mechanical concepts to use when comparing it (implicitly or explicitly) to other systems. The mechanics of D20 absolutely influence the flavor of the games you run in it. A gunfight in D20 Modern would look entirely different from a gunfight in GURPS or Savage Worlds or BRP; and trying to emulate the feel of any of those systems in D20 would require changing so many things that there's little point in calling it D20 from a mechanical standpoint. FFG's Warhammer 40k games and Call of Cthulhu both use a percentile system; but they're entirely different systems with a completely different feel, each going for a different in-game atmosphere.
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Post by Kainguru on Aug 13, 2012 16:15:03 GMT -8
Yes much clearer . . . But it all presupposes what expectations you bring to the table and the system . . . Mention d20 and people assume a certain type of RP structure and flavour when, as noted its actually very neutral at its heart - the d20 being a simple resolution mechanic like d100 or d10 die pool or 2d6 . . . It's the fluff added to the basic mechanic that gives flavour. D20 as a system is more than just "roll a d20 against a target number. It includes the race/class/level structure, incremental stat bonuses, AC instead of DR, abstracted HP, no hit locations, and so on. These things are common to most D20 games out there, and give us a set of mechanical concepts to use when comparing it (implicitly or explicitly) to other systems. The mechanics of D20 absolutely influence the flavor of the games you run in it. A gunfight in D20 Modern would look entirely different from a gunfight in GURPS or Savage Worlds or BRP; and trying to emulate the feel of any of those systems in D20 would require changing so many things that there's little point in calling it D20 from a mechanical standpoint. FFG's Warhammer 40k games and Call of Cthulhu both use a percentile system; but they're entirely different systems with a completely different feel, each going for a different in-game atmosphere. But only in your experience . . . I've seen house ruled damage reduction and AC since AD&D 1st ed courtesy of White Dwarf Magazine. It was a simple elegant system that also enabled amour degradation. Not all d20 systems utilise classes like D&D . . . Some derivations use archetypes instead with emphasis on skill development. The fact that feats and skills are synonymous with d20 now betrays the evolution of a system that started with neither - these being bolts ons added later - non weapon proficiencies were added in AD&D 1st as an option then codified in 2e to later evolve as skills and powers in the final evolution of 2e's character options (a set of hideously complicated tomes that broke down character abilities into further sub stats reminiscent of Top Secret) to finally emerge again as skills and feats in 3.x+. The d20 system originates in the Chainmail rules . . . A nice read if you enjoy RPG history . . . What you mention is exactly what I contend that every group and player brings with them a set of assumptions about d20 based on their experience of the system rather than the system itself. Because there is no pure d20 fluff neutral system in print . . . As to Cthulhu it's a flavoured version of BRP therefore the comparison to 40k is not relevant as they use different base systems that happen to use a d100 - how the d100 is used differs and sets each system apart . . . Traveller and Tunnels & Trolls and Star Wars d6 use d6 but the mechanics differ they are not the same system but Traveller Dredd or Strontium Dog are flavoured versions of Traveller. Like runequest birthing BRP by accident Traveller in the hands of mongoose has evolved from a sci fi system to a universal system with minimal reworking . . . All it required was a change of perspective and the dumping of many assumptions about the system ie remove the fluff grab the mechanic then add fluff as desired to suit the concept. What limits a system is really what one expects from it . . . And assumes goes with it . . . And that differs from group to group. I agree with JiB about mage ascendency in d20 but I have a different, old school, take on that problem - at the start mages are weak and easily killed . . . Surviving to a high enough level to become a spell wielding organ of death is hard and a just reward for making it that far . . . As a result such spell casters are rare in my worlds because those pesky fighters with all those HP's at low levels tend to cull the mage herd rather brutally (a micro model of evolution and ecosystems) limiting their numbers severely. Loads of high level fighters very few high level mages . . . And even the best Mage will run out of spells eventually . . . The fighters just have to have enough numbers so that at least one is standing when that moment comes to demonstrate to the now depleted mage that brute force and pig ignorance, backed by naked steel, can win an argument after all.
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Aug 13, 2012 17:59:24 GMT -8
To answer the question both creativecowboy and kaitoujuliet posed: if you've changed 90% of a game's RAW to fit your group's tastes and playstyle, then by all means keep playing it. But you can't tell me that system doesn't matter in this case. If the system didn't matter, you wouldn't have felt the need to change anything about the system, because... well... it wouldn't have affected your game at all. Um, no. You're putting words in my mouth. I have never said (or believed) that systems never need modifying, and I honestly don't see where you get the idea that I did. What I said is that if a system doesn't exactly fit the story you have in mind, it's generally a fairly minor and overcome-able issue, at least within the framework of adventure stories. (If you want to do something that's not an adventure story, then you will probably need to find a system that's more tightly focused.) House rules are part of the method for overcoming any mismatch between system and story; the skill of the GM, the goodwill of the players, and the willingness to improvise are other ingredients. In my opinion, system matters a lot. I’m kind of an Indie/Hippie –game fan boy and as such I’ve played and read a lot of games that really strives to invoke a special tone or feeling in the game by their rules. Not surprising ;D , since that's what indie games are all about! I've played several indie games (not as many as I'd like) and enjoyed them. I just think the potential of so-called "traditional" games to provide satisfying roleplay experiences shouldn't be underestimated. I also find that the focus of indie games is sometimes more limiting than freeing, for me.D20 as a system is more than just "roll a d20 against a target number. It includes the race/class/level structure, incremental stat bonuses, AC instead of DR, abstracted HP, no hit locations, and so on. Not always. I refer you, for example, to Mutants & Masterminds, which is a D20/OGL system which is effects-based and has no races or classes. Instead of character levels, it has a power level which affects an entire campaign. And so on.
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Post by kaitoujuliet on Aug 14, 2012 7:59:20 GMT -8
Oh, also: My only gripe with the d20 system is that as magic wielding characters advance in level they do more and more damage with each attack but the intrinsic damage of a weapon never changes. This disparity leads to the escalation of magic items in d20 games (imho). There's a term for that, which I'm sure you've heard: LFQW (Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard). But surely that issue wouldn't affect your ability to run a pulp detective game.
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Post by jazzisblues on Aug 14, 2012 10:10:22 GMT -8
Oh, also: My only gripe with the d20 system is that as magic wielding characters advance in level they do more and more damage with each attack but the intrinsic damage of a weapon never changes. This disparity leads to the escalation of magic items in d20 games (imho). There's a term for that, which I'm sure you've heard: LFQW (Linear Fighter, Quadratic Wizard). But surely that issue wouldn't affect your ability to run a pulp detective game. Nope, never said it would interfere. Just that that's where the wheels come off of the wagon for d20 for me. JiB
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Post by Stu Venable on Aug 14, 2012 12:38:05 GMT -8
But would a hit point attrition system interfere with telling a gritty, street-level story?
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Aug 14, 2012 13:32:31 GMT -8
But would a hit point attrition system interfere with telling a gritty, street-level story? My question in response, because I believe the GM is the system: why would you house rule/allow such a thing if you and the other players felt it was inappropriate? Where is the authority of RPGs invested: the designer of a system or the players? What sort of music does the "system" of RPGs represent: jazz or orchestrated? A collaborative game or a video game? what no karma even for brevity?
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