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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2013 7:38:09 GMT -8
I'm about 45 minutes into the episode and I'm loving the discussion of player ingenuity used to resolve problems in ways unanticipated by the GM. I think it takes fairness and maturity to handle these situations gracefully. I have no doubt there are GMs out there who would take it as a personal affront or a threat to the pretty stories they had planned out in their respective li'l heads. (How cute!) I know there are times in my gaming career when I reacted that way What a way to kill player agency! Anyhow, there's a post on the 'blog Dreams in the Lich House entitled "Die, Strahd, Die!" that I think exemplifies a classy GM reaction to an unexpected development in the game. Enjoy!
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2013 8:59:48 GMT -8
I'm at 1 hour and 20 minutes now, listening to the "HealBot" discussion. I think the other suggestions, like providing equipment or tweaking the scenario, are good ones.
However, let's assume for a moment that the "HealBot" solution is the easiest solution for me. As with many things, I think the implementation will inform effectiveness.
I'd try to avoid simply introducing a conventional, GM-controlled NPC to make things easier on the party. Not only would this introduce a potential "GMPC," I think players would be inclined to take the tag-along for granted, 'cause it doesn't cost 'em anything.
That said, I might lean on the traditional guidelines for hirelings or henchmen in D&D: Players can direct the actions of this new addition to the party but they must invest in recruitment and then must either pay wages or share loot (and, depending on the system, experience points also). Such hirelings or henchmen, although open to direction by the players, are subject to morale checks, etc. They may be directed by the GM if the players are ignoring him/her—and if that's happening, one has to wonder how much the "HealBot" is truly needed, right?
Again this might not be a perfect solution but it can be fun—and you could argue that it has withstood the test of time. Also, the cost of henchmen and hirelings might actually encourage stingy players to be creative in overcoming the perceived gap in their party through other means.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2013 10:55:39 GMT -8
Okay, this is the last post from me in this thread I want to support Jib's comment near the end of the show about avoiding too much specificity in establishing connections between characters. I think using a fairly open description makes it easier to "plug and play" connections and other background elements when it's dramatically appropriate, rather than being constrained by details like location, etc. Consider the following hypothetical background bits: The second one sounds real juicy, doesn't it? It's gonna take some work to integrate, though. The players need a good reason to be in Westport and to be in the company of Barton the Tinker—are you going to go to all that work just to tie up a minor background bit? I think the former, less detailed version, would be easier to integrate on the fly: Too narrativist or metagamey for some? Perhaps. Still, it's my experience that these synergistic, emergent developments of character resulting from loosely described background can be at least as dramatic and rewarding as those resulting from detailed background description and requisite orchestration by the GM.
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HyveMynd
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Post by HyveMynd on Feb 3, 2013 21:29:33 GMT -8
I'm only half an hour in so far (despite being there for most of the live stream) and I wanted to comment on Stork's statement about online games. While it's true that online gaming (via Skype, Google+ or whatever) makes it easier to find time to game (sometimes), there is also an side effect which he didn't mention.
You significant other thinking that because you are home and sitting in front of the computer, that you are not busy.
When I ran all those Dungeon World games for the HJs crew over the 2012/2013 winter holiday, I had to tell my girlfriend that I would be unavailable for those 4 hours. Despite her agreeing after I laid everything out, I still got dirty looks towards the ends of my sessions. It annoyed the shit out of me. No, I can't be quiet. No, I can't take out the garbage right now. Yes, you do have to keep the TV to a reasonable volume. Yes, I am busy right now and can't spend time with you. I thought we went over this. I've blocked this time as "game time" and just because I am at home doesn't mean I am not busy. Sorry.
Of course perhaps this wouldn't be so much of a problem if I weren't in a tiny shoebox of a Japanese apartment.
And just to show that he does have good ideas, I'll second Stork's suggested use of photos for NPCs. Even when you're not playing online games. When we started out Vampire: the Requiem game way back when, the GM asked everyone to find a photo of their character and he found ones of important NPCs. They were mostly actors and other random photos we got from the web. We printed them out at those little photo machines and used them in the game. We'd lay them out on the table, and it was a lot easier to imagine we were interacting with those characters.
This was especially helpful for me, as my character was a "social predator" and spent most of the game seducing NPCs. It was a lot easier to act when I could pretend I was hitting on the person in the photograph, rather than my GM.
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Post by Stu Venable on Feb 3, 2013 21:35:34 GMT -8
SWMBO and I had a similar discussion, but we're married, and she's an old woman, so it was easy for her to grok.
Especially when I explained there are people in other states arranging their schedules so we can play at the allotted time.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 4:06:21 GMT -8
"The blot power is essentially lightningbolt and fireball." and then a bit later "He cast earth to mud and then mud to earth!!!!!" I wanna see you pinnacle fanboys do that in savage worlds
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 4, 2013 6:19:45 GMT -8
"The blot power is essentially lightningbolt and fireball." and then a bit later "He cast earth to mud and then mud to earth!!!!!" I wanna see you pinnacle fanboys do that in savage worlds Challenge accepted ... Entangle Done, JiB
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 7:19:37 GMT -8
I've just been listening to the discussion about a Tranformers-ish game, and (geek-mode engaged) am going to take issue with the idea that the Transformers characters are limited. All the Transformers have their particular skills and traits that make them unique, quite apart from their ability to transform. Optimus Prime is a hero/leader. Ironhide is a weaponsmith. Jazz is a sniper/martial artist. Bumblebee is an infiltrator/spy. Ratchet is a medic. Etc. A great inspiration for a Transformers-themed game/campaign would be something like Transformers:Animated, because the team was small, with distinct character roles/types, with limited resources attempting to complete missions to protect humans/the Allspark. The series transitions convincingly, revealing important aspects of each character's backstory and building upon their role in the team in parallel with the escalating peril/threat they must face. The fact that they can also transform into vehicles is almost irrelevant except that it allows giant robots to move unnoticed in a human environment. Transformers have always been able to alter their vehicle mode (and, to a more limited degree, their robot mode) to suit their particular environment. But doing so is draining and, obviously, constrained by the laws of conservation of mass. Optimus Prime, for example, could be a lorry, a fire engine (as he has been in some continuities), a car transporter or anything of that ilk. He couldn't, however, be a transporter plane - or at least, if he were one, it would be one that couldn't fly, as he doesn't possess the necessary parts to do so. So PC (and NPC) transformers could enjoy a degree of flexibility as to their exact appearance/colour etc, but are limited on how far they can deviate from the norm. R. EDIT - Now heard about Gina's ghost character who is struggling with her motivation. She should read The Lovely Bones by Alice Sebold. It's actually about the spirit of a murdered child, watching her family and friends grow up from heaven, but it is a great illustration of how a person's own journey doesn't end with their death.
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Post by gina on Feb 4, 2013 10:46:01 GMT -8
EDIT - Now heard about Gina's ghost character who is struggling with her motivation. She should read The Lovely Bones by Alice Sebold. It's actually about the spirit of a murdered child, watching her family and friends grow up from heaven, but it is a great illustration of how a person's own journey doesn't end with their death. Thank you! I've read the book/seen the movie, and you're quite right. I think, while I'd gone into the game with an idea of an actual character beyond stats, edges/hindrances, & the bond I'd come up with, I got some serious creative block after the first couple of games with "the ghost [she has a name] should go out in the hallway to see if it's clear". I don't think I'd ever had that happen before, and so early in play, so I guess I just had a hard time finding the RP vs. mechanical character after that. Thanks again for the reference, it helps.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2013 10:49:39 GMT -8
Challenge accepted ... Entangle Well it is hardly a combination of spells if it is only 1 spell... I think the telekinesis power is the most versatile one, you can do some pretty creative stuff with the environment. Also I used to have a psionic with a lightning based blast (cone) that did less damage overall but much more if used against wet enemies and the session was set completely in a sewer... A great inspiration for a Transformers-themed game/campaign would be something like Transformers:Animated, because the team was small, with distinct character roles/types, with limited resources attempting to complete missions to protect humans/the Allspark. The series transitions convincingly, revealing important aspects of each character's backstory and building upon their role in the team in parallel with the escalating peril/threat they must face. The recent Transformers games are suprisingly good, "War for Cybertron" and "Fall of cybertron", especially the latter is kickass awesome. Both are legitimate prequels of the Cartoon with some of the original voice actors and tropes, i.e. Starscream tries to take over the Decepticons and fucks up, several times. Also they don't hold back, there are all the big guns Bruticus, the firebreathing T-Rex guy, Metroplex, The Huge Doomsday gun dude that is also a Dragon, Omega supreme etc. Most importantly, for an RPG, it gives the reason why they are fighting. Their planet doesn't have enough energy to sustain them, Optimus wants to share and Megatron wants to give it to the ones who are better survivors. The fact that they can also transform into vehicles is almost irrelevant except that it allows giant robots to move unnoticed in a human environment. Yeah true, they mostly fought in robot form, especially the autobots. And I agree that there is enough variety to make many kinds of characters or use existing ones. Transformers have always been able to alter their vehicle mode (and, to a more limited degree, their robot mode) to suit their particular environment. But doing so is draining and, obviously, constrained by the laws of conservation of mass. Optimus Prime, for example, could be a lorry, a fire engine (as he has been in some continuities), a car transporter or anything of that ilk. He couldn't, however, be a transporter plane - or at least, if he were one, it would be one that couldn't fly, as he doesn't possess the necessary parts to do so. So PC (and NPC) transformers could enjoy a degree of flexibility as to their exact appearance/colour etc, but are limited on how far they can deviate from the norm. Energon is the convenient answer to everything.
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Feb 4, 2013 10:58:00 GMT -8
Gina,
EXHALT for the excellent watch on the chat room. You enhanced the podcast.
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Post by tomes on Feb 4, 2013 14:47:14 GMT -8
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Post by gina on Feb 4, 2013 16:46:23 GMT -8
Gina, EXHALT for the excellent watch on the chat room. You enhanced the podcast. Right back atcha, sir. I am humbled (and more-than-frequently humored) at the brilliance of ya'll's collective gaming awesome. *shyly hiding behind hair now I showed Stu & Stork when you posted it, but they couldn't figure it out. Pretty cool though.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 4, 2013 17:28:42 GMT -8
So much cool. Now, where are my crayons. JiB
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Post by henryhankovitch on Feb 4, 2013 17:28:57 GMT -8
I think the hosts were way too hostile to the idea of support NPCs in general--i.e., the healbot. Yes, DMPCs are always bad, always. But there is just as much space for NPCs to be mercs, hirelings, temporary support, manual labor, etc, as there is for NPCs to be merchants, informants, or busty barmaids.
This is especially apparent if you look beyond the dungeon-crawl genre. For instance, look at sci-fi games like Rogue Trader or Star Trek. (Assuming there's a Star Trek RPG worth playing; I wouldn't know.) In either of those instances, the PCs are going to be crewmen--command officers, most likely--on a ship with thousands of people. Tens of thousands, in the case of Rogue Trader. And while many of these NPCs will be faceless deck-swabbers and brass-polishers, it's simply unthinkable that the PCs are the only personnel around who could patch a wound, fix an engine, or drive the damn ship.
It really isn't any different in Shadowrun, or D&D, or most other game settings. There are always people out there with the skills you need; and if a certain skill-set would be life-or-death to the PCs, it's a bit contrived to make them play without it. They'll hire that wandering healer, that second-story man, or that local guide.
That being said, it remains important to keep the NPCs from intruding on PC territory as much as possible. So here are some suggestions:
Most important, of course, is to keep the NPCs from driving the plot. They can deliver information, but they shouldn't deliver solutions. It should be "hey, I happen to read goblin runes, here's what that sign says," not "oh, I happen to know the secret entrance to the goblin lair." Their personal background should really be kept minimal, and they should never, ever take a proactive role in the plot. Unless they're secretly the villains or something. They should always be in the background, able to lend a hand, but not given a starring role.
In general, whenever I give the party access to an NPC, I always make it less competent or powerful than a PC would be in the same role. Lower levels, or a less effective class/build, or just someone with some significant character disadvantages. Instead of a powerful holy warrior, the hireling healer might be a lowly priest with no combat training, or a vow of pacifism. He might even be a coward who runs from danger rather than take extreme risks on the party's behalf. There's a reason these people aren't leading adventurer parties of their own, after all.
And of course, a support NPC should usually have a cost to them. They'll want a share of the treasure, they'll object to being used as a gear mule (unless that's what they were hired for), they may have family or employers that they need to keep in contact with. And of course they'll always have a strong sense of self-interest--they're not going to take point. Both mechanically and story-wise, you want to keep the party from seeing support NPCs as "free power."
As an example: in Rogue Trader, every ship must have at least one Navigator. This is ripped straight out of the Dune universe: they're purpose-bred individuals with psychic powers who are needed to travel faster than light. One of the PCs can be the Navigator, but if nobody wants to play it, you really can't have a ship without an NPC in the role.
Because the Navigator's abilities have a strong mechanical role in the gameplay--deciding how long it takes to get places, how many bad things happen to you, and so on--I actually built a Navigator NPC rather than just handling Warp travel by plot fiat. He had class levels, but he didn't level up--and I also didn't give him Fate Points, which are very important for re-rolling failed checks. Additionally, I also made him an extremely disgusting character who didn't like to come out of his lavish quarters; so the party neither wanted, nor was encouraged to ask him to go down to the planet adventuring with them. He was a colorful character--and the PCs cursed his name every time the ship went off-course--but he always remained a background character.
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