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Post by ayslyn on Mar 9, 2013 3:25:26 GMT -8
This is the last season of it? I thought that they were rebooting it?
And you're right. Being Human is a fantastic example of that struggle.
Sure, we can live on gruel and vitamin pills, but we don't. They can stave off the Hunger with animals or stored blood, but it doesn't satisfy it.
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Post by malifer on Mar 9, 2013 4:15:55 GMT -8
But it does kind of nullify the "struggle". It just becomes hypocritical. It's like watching reality television. None of the "actors" try to be the shallow, callous morons they are. Now I'm not saying to you can't play Reality TV the Rpg, but I don't like it. Which was all I was saying about vampires. I find the "goody two shoes" ones to be lame. Understandably the "Alive" people that ate their dead co-passangers to survive in the mountains are still human, but their fucked up about it and not trying to pretend like they should continue eating people on a daily basis. Poppycock. The people who resorted to cannibalism didn't eat people afterwards because they no longer had to make that choice. For a vampire they're still in the mountains. They feed or they die. You're suggesting that the survivors weren't human because they ate people while that was their alternative to wasting away. First, love the word poppycock. I'm wasn't suggesting the survivors weren't human. I said they are still human. Because I agree with you that people will do crazy things to survive. But it will mess them up and they might just go crazy. And if they had continued to be into cannibalism after the ordeal we would not look at them as humans that did what it took to survive, but as monsters. Now I see your idea of the Vamps are still in the mountains, so in the case the goody two shoes moral Vampire I think they go crazy or their stop themselves permanently. Like an early comparison I made this shit, is too wish-washy Time Travel-ly bullshit. You either buy into the fiction or you don't. It's too much for me to swallow. I don't believe in a mass murder being allowed to say they're sorry and everything is suddenly okay or give a fuck if their daddy never said I love you. These are not characters I want to tell stories about, because I find them hypocritical and I cannot relate to them. As for Being Human that's good example. My wife watches that show. I cannot stand it. A bunch whiny selfish fuckheads saying "woe is me" all the time. It's not a struggle in my eyes.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 9, 2013 9:12:11 GMT -8
This is the last season of it? I thought that they were rebooting it? And you're right. Being Human is a fantastic example of that struggle. Sure, we can live on gruel and vitamin pills, but we don't. They can stave off the Hunger with animals or stored blood, but it doesn't satisfy it. It was rebooted last season and tonight is the finale for the whole series . . . all the cast were replaced in stages throughout season 3. It's a shame as the current 3 are better than the first three . . . but don't go to SFX Forum and say that (they'll delete your post and ban you - seriously it happened to mate of mine) Aaron
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Mar 9, 2013 14:46:08 GMT -8
people will do crazy things to survive. But it will mess them up and they might just go crazy. I think Aaron will back me up on this from his professional perspective but people will explain away the craziest shit evah! Ever been in a cult and come out – or ever try to present a different point of view to someone in a cult? I think at least two supportive concepts are termed Confirmation Bias and Persistence in Belief… These are not characters I want to tell stories about, because I find them hypocritical and I cannot relate to them. It is hypocritical. Yet most people will claim they hold onto the same beliefs today as they did 10 years ago despite any evidence to the contrary. I cannot stand it. A bunch whiny selfish fuckheads saying "woe is me" all the time. It's not a struggle in my eyes. So, yes, monsters (even Chaotic Evil ones) will believe they are not the problem the same as people will defend their back stabbing selfish actions by saying the victim gave them implicit (if not claim outright explicit) permission. This is not a phenomenon limited to rapists…. Or women who become pregnant because they enjoy rape, for one recently hot topic in perceptual defence. Not the type of game I want to play either. Or, were I to have children I was responsible for, a kind of world viewpoint I want to promote to them. Not the type of people I want to choose to hang with… etc. Behaviour will establish thinking patterns and attitudes. (Okay there is some debate on this.... )
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Mar 9, 2013 18:05:57 GMT -8
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 10, 2013 8:49:22 GMT -8
people will do crazy things to survive. But it will mess them up and they might just go crazy. I think Aaron will back me up on this from his professional perspective but people will explain away the craziest shit evah! Ever been in a cult and come out – or ever try to present a different point of view to someone in a cult? I think at least two supportive concepts are termed Confirmation Bias and Persistence in Belief… It is hypocritical. Yet most people will claim they hold onto the same beliefs today as they did 10 years ago despite any evidence to the contrary. Yep . . . the best and most familar example from recent history: The Nazi's. From that you get the very famous 'Prison Experiment' - given sufficient authority/motivation people can behave very much like monsters without even thinking that they are. NB: the 'forbidden experiment' (prisoners/guards) was repeated in the UK a few years ago with very different results (the prisoners usurped the authority of the guards and the group rebelled against the experiment design): cultural bias due to geography/being over 20 years later with new social mores arising? the debate continues . . . Aaron PS: I'll personally remove with blunt spoon the eyes of anyone who references that fucking awful 'fact based' movie 'The Experiment': Hollywood made up sensationalist shite . . . which got the unwashed masses believing psychologists sit in bunkers fucking with people (that's called Big Brother tm)
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 11:18:19 GMT -8
I have no interest in playing vampire at all either. Simpl is not my thing. Werewolf or Hnter? Maybe.
Also Kainguru, you have invoked Godwin's Law.
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 10, 2013 11:48:09 GMT -8
I have no interest in playing vampire at all either. Simpl is not my thing. Werewolf or Hnter? Maybe. Also Kainguru, you have invoked Godwin's Law. Lol. Exactly - we humans are quite monstrous at times: most fiction reflect human acts but personify it as the act of some creature of darkness, that subtext is the real horror. I dislike discussions about the Zimbardo Experiment because of that film . . . There was this whole screed of psychology bashing on the Youtubes with clips lifted from the movie. I went to reply to one comment 'it's hard to believe this happened' - got about 250 words in detailing the facts and the film fabrications when I just thought: they'll never fucking read it and if they do they'll just accuse me of being a plant trying to obscure their truth. Aaron
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Post by CreativeCowboy on Mar 10, 2013 12:30:11 GMT -8
they'll never fucking read it and if they do they'll just accuse me of being a plant trying to obscure their truth. Aaron Welcome to my world. You know that Joseph Goebbels was an student of my mentor, Edward Bernays? Edward Bernays was quite excited that Joe had his book in his library; apparently field testing in Germany the theories he created with the assistance of his uncle Freud who fled Austria due to the Nazi menace. I imagine the conversations around the family menorah would have been pretty god damn interesting themselves. (Bernays became an atheist if I recall correctly.)
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 10, 2013 13:37:33 GMT -8
they'll never fucking read it and if they do they'll just accuse me of being a plant trying to obscure their truth. Aaron Welcome to my world. You know that Joseph Goebbels was an student of my mentor, Edward Bernays? Edward Bernays was quite excited that Joe had his book in his library; apparently field testing in Germany the theories he created with the assistance of his uncle Freud who fled Austria due to the Nazi menace. I imagine the conversations around the family menorah would have been pretty god damn interesting themselves. (Bernays became an atheist if I recall correctly.) A position I too have adopted after years of trying to reconcile reason with belief. After awhile belief gave way as it too started to succumb to rationale ideology. I like to think that people who are just kind because they are just kind are far better than people who are kind because they fear the man living in the sky or because they hope to accrue goodwill credits for the hereafter. It's easy to judge a persons actions purely from the consequences . . . It gets very murky when you start looking at the why and the influences that led up to those actions - we love to personify evil when often such people could be any one of us given different circumstances. How often is an 'evil doer' some one who believes they are actually 'doing the right thing'? Ethics are comparatively easy, it's morality that's hard. Aaron
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Post by Deleted on Mar 10, 2013 14:03:10 GMT -8
What about Jane Elliot?
<ducks>
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Post by Kainguru on Mar 10, 2013 14:40:24 GMT -8
What about Jane Elliot? <ducks> Why duck? Her blue eyes/brown eyes experiment is a classic. In and out group identification with subjective value judgements attached which model behavioural expectations. Like Zimbardo the guards behaved a certain way because they believed it was expected and that they had the social authority to act that way - the post WWII nazi war crime trials bought this to light as the common defence was 'just following orders'. For many of the minor participants this was true - thus the question? Why did they follow those orders? - then it gets complicated. Another classic experiment is the unseen person in the next room begging the participant to stop as s/he gradually increase the voltage on a machine s/he believes is attached to the unseen person. When the participant appears to want to stop increasing the voltage the observing experimenter instructs him/her to continue . . . And more often than not they do. Though this is probably due to the participant instinctively guessing the meta-experiment ie: no experiment that causes actual harm would ever be approved by the over seeing ethics committee. Thus interpretation of the results is confounded and, again, the debate continues . . . Many of the so called forbidden experiments (because they'd never pass a modern ethics committee in this day and age and because the results on their first run) have been reformulated and re run with struck controls and guidelines. The results of these new experiments have often been counter intuitive to the original . . . Thus there is massive resurgence in interest in this field because, quite literally, the more we learn the less we appear to actually know . . . Aaron PS I could rabbit on for hours about this field because it really is one of my prime interests - being an advocate social construction theory
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