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Post by ericfromnj on May 28, 2013 16:03:58 GMT -8
Guys, I wanted to thank you for reading my email.
The drugs I take are definitely good for me and fix issues that have been around for YEARS. However, my creativity has taken a nose dive and listening that it happens to people regardless made me determine to get my mojo back.
So far, 3 stories have been submitted and approved for a LARP this weekend. Granted, one is based on My Little Pony (facepainted cutie marks are going on ALL these big, bad PCs in their scary looking armor!!!!), but it's mine.
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2013 23:23:37 GMT -8
This is a reaction to several comments I've received over the years from people who've tried GURPS and were turned off to it, because they were overwhelmed by the rules, probably because they played with a GM who insisted on using the complete rules, even for new players. I don't think there's a wrong way to play GURPS, but I certainly believe there is a wrong way to teach (or introduce new players to) GURPS. If you try to play the rules in their entirety from the beginning, without any previous experience with the system, you are likely to pass on it and try something else. Teaching the game in an incremental way, by introducing rules concepts a bit at a time, will ease players into it. This makes it more likely they'll enjoy themselves and be willing to play more GURPS. And this is backed up by the way combat rules in the GURPS books are presented. That said, when I run a GURPS campaign, once the players are up to speed, I like to play with full tactical combat rules, with hit locations, etc. It's then that you see the power of a simulationist system. I agree wholeheartedly with you, anybody who asks me how to start playing GURPS I point to GURPS light... It just doesn't make sense to play with all the switches on when the GM and the players do not have the experience to handle all these rules and modifiers. I myself am guilty of this: When I started playing GURPS in 2006, years after my last AD&D session, I wanted to have it all and so my first campaign crashed spectacularly. Fortunately this did not turn me away from GURPS but made me invest a few more years ( ) and now that I feel comfortable with the system, I slowly turn on all the options again. Then again, I deem it unfair to say that this is only the case with GURPS... if a new GM starts D&D 4.0 group with level 20 characters, they will likely run into the same troubles I had in the begining. Or any other system for that matter... As for my comment about the huge combat chart. There exists (I tried to find it, but my search skills are failing) a document, about 4 pages long, written in very small type, that goes line by line providing every attack roll modifier in the game. If there are people out there who go through that chart to make sure they have every possible to hit modifier, they're going to take 15-20 minutes per player turn. I would never play the game that way. But if people are playing that way and are enjoying themselves, that's great. "If you're having fun, you're doing it right" does not preclude us from having opinions about how to play the game. If we didn't have such opinions and comment on them, we would have a show at all. That's what ticked me off. If you were talking about my Combat Maneuvers Cheat Sheet I can clearly see why it would overwhelm a new player. Most of them have a hard time finding the skills, attributes, weapons on a character sheet, how the hell would they be able to handle this sheet. But since I put a lot of work into this sheet (btw. it is 2 pages in reality, the additional pages are just there in case you use imperial measurements - note the speed range/table) and even more so since I value your opinion as a veteran GM I just couldn't believe that you would dismiss something meant for the intermediate to advanced players with the words:"They're doing it wrong" But with the clarification you just gave to which I have to agree I am a happy camper again. Maybe I will even put a little warning sign in that sheet Thanks Stu Cheers Onkl
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Post by CreativeCowboy on May 29, 2013 5:19:05 GMT -8
Just catching up on my listening and at 92:40 of the podcast I heard my handle evoked in connection to my crusade for right and against wrong play being confused with system (objectively rather than subjectively defined in connection with the GM)….
Stu said: My point about it (4-page, 8-point flow charts that go through and ask the thousands of question you will ask to find out exactly what your “to hit” modifier is…) is: those guys that come up with this big chart, they’re playing it wrong. Period.
Stu, your system (GM=GURPS) is your system whatever mechanics package (GURPS, FATAL, the hodgepodge I call my game) you choose to use. There is nothing more than your personal development to qualify whether your game is right or wrong. And within this understanding there is acceptance of the player (in the role of GM in this instance). This accepts your system of game, as well as mook's and onkl's, as well as the differences in response to player needs. There is only your way and your way will develop with you. It is like an opinion (AD&D 1e DMG page 7: as one DM equal to another). The hobby should not be a refuge for the evangelically atheist looking for a religion in my opinion (thank you Pat Robertson).
The right way for this hobby is to allow every game to be unique to its players (whatever their role). The attempt to mechanically standardize the experience at every table sanitizes the GM (and lowers newbie GM confidence) as it breaks down the hobby into warring arguments. This may surprise people but, back in the day, AD&D 1e was played in as many different iterations as there were groups, and we liked it.
Yes, that says **CENSORED** to me. So running your game mechanically is not a good or bad thing, a right or wrong way. It is "my time playing with Stu "(and the others: how we adapt/play together in Stu’s game).
Now is there a right or wrong way to play (as in play well together)… most definitely. Is there a “my opinion” in this statement? Not in my mind. And you know what I am talking about certainly. It is not about cutting a 4-page flow chart or administering splat books or creating house rules. It is about the Asshole. And I believe that the hobby needs to define what an asshole is in the context of a role-playing game.
Role-playing is a social game. So it really should not surprise anyone, but the asshole, that the right or wrong way to play is concerned with social etiquette. Back in 1979, this was understood when it was written in AD&D 1e to throw assholes out of your game. And it gave examples of assholes, and naturally the description aptly fits the anti-social hobby elitists.
I have not seen this kind of clear statement in many games. It is why I favour AD&D 1e at my table. I have seen the sanitization of GM input and the attempts to standardize the life out of games. And the amount of confusion about what constitutes an asshole in RPGs tends to bear witness to the loss of this ancient wisdom.
There are many socially well-adjusted hobbyists. There are many antisocial cockroaches hiding behind their role (character or GM) in the game. I think it is time to shine a light on these cockroaches so that the hobby empowers the players who are socially well-adjusted hobbyists and best suited to play well with others in a social game.
Whatever game gets overlaid to play, this is the bedrock of RPG mechanics.
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Post by mook on May 31, 2013 4:21:25 GMT -8
Just some quick fly-bys: Absolutely agree that anyone new to GURPS should just start with the basics, then add in new stuff *if they want to*. Trying to digest it all at once is like catching up on the backlog sans lube. Naturally, it's nice to have a GM who is familiar with GURPS, 'cause then you can have the best of both worlds - a player who gets to use all the rules without actually knowing what they are, filtered through the GM's "roll this." The default assumption for GURPS missile spells is that the wizard uses magic to create in his hand, say, a ball of fire...but at that point he is now holding a "real," physical ball of fire and needs to throw it like any other physical thing. It's like summoning a hand grenade. GM's are, of course, free to ignore that if they wish. Onkl: I continue to hate you for making my functional but ugly combat sheets so much lovelier.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on May 31, 2013 4:58:29 GMT -8
Just some quick fly-bys: Absolutely agree that anyone new to GURPS should just start with the basics, then add in new stuff *if they want to*. Trying to digest it all at once is like catching up on the backlog sans lube. Naturally, it's nice to have a GM who is familiar with GURPS, 'cause then you can have the best of both worlds - a player who gets to use all the rules without actually knowing what they are, filtered through the GM's "roll this." The default assumption for GURPS missile spells is that the wizard uses magic to create in his hand, say, a ball of fire...but at that point he is now holding a "real," physical ball of fire and needs to throw it like any other physical thing. It's like summoning a hand grenade. GM's are, of course, free to ignore that if they wish. Onkl: I continue to hate you for making my functional but ugly combat sheets so much lovelier. I'm not sure if you yourself are aware but there does seem to be a common misconception about GURPS that casters have to hurl magical projectiles using the throwing skill. There is a caster specific skill, just for hurling spells, separate from the mundane 'throwing' skill.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on May 31, 2013 5:25:37 GMT -8
OK - sorry for the double post but since it is the second time I have mentioned it in this thread, I had to pull out my GURPS book and look it up.
Casters use the skill 'Innate Attack' to hurl fireballs, NOT 'Throwing'. This seems to be a common error.
This is an important distinction because while they are both DX based, Throwing is rated average difficulty and Innate Attack is rated easy, making it cheaper. HALF the cost in fact if you buy DX+1 or +2.
IS ANYBODY LISTENING!!
EDIT: It is also a sensible separation as a wizard who is awesome at launching fireballs accurately is not going to automatically be a master knife-thrower rock thrower......
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Post by Stu Venable on May 31, 2013 6:26:30 GMT -8
That changed with 4th Edition. In 3rd Ed and previous, it was the throwing skill.
Many a-time I remember a mage concentrating for three turns to build a 3-dice exploding fireball only to miss his throwing roll.
Mages used to have the worst of all worlds, because they needed three good stats.
IQ for spell skill level, ST for fatigue and DX for throwing. Personally, I found it balancing.
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Post by mook on May 31, 2013 10:50:02 GMT -8
I'm not sure if you yourself are aware but there does seem to be a common misconception about GURPS that casters have to hurl magical projectiles using the throwing skill. There is a caster specific skill, just for hurling spells, separate from the mundane 'throwing' skill. Sorry, I was posting from work, was just going for the broad strokes. But yes indeedy, mechanically the skill mages use for missile spells is Innate Attack (just ask the wizard in my Forgotten Realms game!) I was just making the point that, thaumatoligically (triple word score!), GURPS missile spells are basically conjurations, creating something out of nothing. "It's like summoning a hand grenade" isn't technically correct. Mages used to have the worst of all worlds, because they needed three good stats. IQ for spell skill level, ST for fatigue and DX for throwing. Personally, I found it balancing.Hmm, good point, I never thought of that. Now I feel like my Realms wizard PC is getting a free ride! (And feel better, quickly).
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maxinstuff
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HJRP0919
May 31, 2013 15:32:01 GMT -8
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Post by maxinstuff on May 31, 2013 15:32:01 GMT -8
I'm not sure if you yourself are aware but there does seem to be a common misconception about GURPS that casters have to hurl magical projectiles using the throwing skill. There is a caster specific skill, just for hurling spells, separate from the mundane 'throwing' skill. Sorry, I was posting from work, was just going for the broad strokes. But yes indeedy, mechanically the skill mages use for missile spells is Innate Attack (just ask the wizard in my Forgotten Realms game!) I was just making the point that, thaumatoligically (triple word score!), GURPS missile spells are basically conjurations, creating something out of nothing. "It's like summoning a hand grenade" isn't technically correct. Mages used to have the worst of all worlds, because they needed three good stats. IQ for spell skill level, ST for fatigue and DX for throwing. Personally, I found it balancing.Hmm, good point, I never thought of that. Now I feel like my Realms wizard PC is getting a free ride! (And feel better, quickly). Thanks mook , not sure what came over me. Reading GURPS books...... does things to a person.
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Post by mook on May 31, 2013 17:55:38 GMT -8
Reading GURPS books...... does things to a person. And if that's wrong ... I don't wanna be right!
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D.T. Pints
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Currently Playing: D&D 5e, Pathfinder, DUNGEONWORLD, Star Wars Edge of the Empire
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Post by D.T. Pints on May 31, 2013 18:10:23 GMT -8
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