merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on Jul 2, 2013 16:37:26 GMT -8
I guess I read the TN rules as not a "hit or miss" kinda thing, but rather a measure of the quality of contact on a spectrum. A really low roll might be a whiff, whereas a roll just below TN might be a blow that glanced of the sword or armor but wasn't solid enough to do any damage. Obviously wearing armor would increase the chances of these glancing blows so it makes sense that would raise TN.
I also like the way raises work into this spectrum, since trying a trickier attack would generate a better result if it contacts meaningfully. Plus it further reinforces that TN isn't really a binary system from a narrative standpoint.
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Post by malifer on Jul 2, 2013 19:17:23 GMT -8
I guess I read the TN rules as not a "hit or miss" kinda thing, but rather a measure of the quality of contact on a spectrum. A really low roll might be a whiff, whereas a roll just below TN might be a blow that glanced of the sword or armor but wasn't solid enough to do any damage. Obviously wearing armor would increase the chances of these glancing blows so it makes sense that would raise TN. I also like the way raises work into this spectrum, since trying a trickier attack would generate a better result if it contacts meaningfully. Plus it further reinforces that TN isn't really a binary system from a narrative standpoint. That sounds a lot like Armor Class.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 2, 2013 19:37:04 GMT -8
I guess I read the TN rules as not a "hit or miss" kinda thing, but rather a measure of the quality of contact on a spectrum. A really low roll might be a whiff, whereas a roll just below TN might be a blow that glanced of the sword or armor but wasn't solid enough to do any damage. Obviously wearing armor would increase the chances of these glancing blows so it makes sense that would raise TN. I also like the way raises work into this spectrum, since trying a trickier attack would generate a better result if it contacts meaningfully. Plus it further reinforces that TN isn't really a binary system from a narrative standpoint. That sounds a lot like Armor Class. Yep - sure does
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SirGuido
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Post by SirGuido on Jul 3, 2013 15:29:22 GMT -8
Do you guys know anything about how armor was designed and made in most asian countries? Anything at all? If you did you might realize that this is a very representational way to show how armor works in the spectrum of a game.
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Post by malifer on Jul 3, 2013 16:45:46 GMT -8
Do you guys know anything about how armor was designed and made in most asian countries? Anything at all? If you did you might realize that this is a very representational way to show how armor works in the spectrum of a game. Yes, I do. I disagree. And I think it is fine that you think it is appropriate. I am sorry to have offended you. I discovered too late this game was not for me. And then I realized I didn't want to be posting in your forum about it. I keep trying to leave. I really shouldn't keep clicking this thread, but people keep adding to it. "Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in." From now on I swear this thread is dead to me. If you want a response from me on this topic PM me or start a thread somewhere else titled something along the lines of "sock puppet douchebag who doesn't know shit about taint".
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 3, 2013 23:23:16 GMT -8
Yeah that was legitimate bummeritude expressed on my part, not trying to give you a hard time. I was just trying to say that every way of determining that sort of stuff in games falls apart when I treat it too much like a pinata, so I've had to just stop. Nah it was cool. I have pointed this out before (it was a long time ago), but the difference between AC and other methods of arbitrating combat like active defense rolls and armour soak is pure mathsturbation. Some of the methods scale a little differently, but you need big numbers for it to have too much impact, and you mostly get the same mathematical results over time. EDIT: Checked the old numbers I did, active defence rolls (e.g. GURPS) are mathematically IDENTICAL to AC, whereas soak scales differently. If you have soak in your game though I assume attacks scale roughly in line with it - giving a near identical net result. I guess it depends how 'fun' you want your mechanics to be, and if you even care beyond fair arbitration of conflict. If you like more rolls, and like minusing a soak value from damage - use it. If you prefer it all wrapped up in a single target number, use AC. I don't think your rolls are taking into account the armed naked man vs. the unarmed armored man. It should not be harder for the naked man to survive this encounter. AC does this, it creates a "story" element that makes no sense. Math is all well and good but if your math cannot justify the fiction then it's probably a video game. Savage Worlds utilizes both damage soak and unarmed combatant as functions in a simple rules set. Traveller & Dungeon World have damage soak. I find these systems fun, fast, and logical enough. All use a target number. I really don't want to clutter up the L5R fans subforum any more with this though. But thank you for your input. Really I'm leaving. I'll be on the other subforums if you want to find me. Now I have this image of a grim faced Sir Guido stalking Malifer into the dark recesses of the GM¥%*+ thread waving the Ancient armor making techniques manual around like a crazed samurai. Ah I love nerds!
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on Jul 4, 2013 7:40:21 GMT -8
I guess I read the TN rules as not a "hit or miss" kinda thing, but rather a measure of the quality of contact on a spectrum. A really low roll might be a whiff, whereas a roll just below TN might be a blow that glanced of the sword or armor but wasn't solid enough to do any damage. Obviously wearing armor would increase the chances of these glancing blows so it makes sense that would raise TN. I also like the way raises work into this spectrum, since trying a trickier attack would generate a better result if it contacts meaningfully. Plus it further reinforces that TN isn't really a binary system from a narrative standpoint. That sounds a lot like Armor Class. Fair enough, then Armor Class makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure why anyone has a problem with armor providing protection.
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Post by The Northman on Jul 4, 2013 13:18:44 GMT -8
The general complaint is that people with a beef vs AC view it as unrealistic that heavier armor makes a person more difficult to hit, where in reality you would likely physically make contact with a person in heavier armor more frequently due to a loss of mobility. There are lots of variables people use to upvote or detract from that idea, and some people just roll with the abstraction and avoid the debate entirely. Entire shows in the backlog raged with the debate.
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merryprankster
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 243
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Post by merryprankster on Jul 4, 2013 13:50:24 GMT -8
Yeah, but I posted earlier that I read TN as not "to hit" but "to make potentially damaging contact". You can be hit and not have it damage you because it glances of the armor. I was told this was AC, and it makes a lot of sense to me that it would be more difficult to land a solid blow on an armored foe. It seems to be a weapon is less likely to "bite" into armor and there are fewer places on an armored opponent where weapon contact has the potential to be damaging.
Again, TN seems like a scale to me NOT a static hit/whiff measure. I was told that's what AC is so why are people assuming that an armored opponent is easier to make contact with. It just means that it is harder to "hit a soft spot" and potentially damage the opponent.
I suppose if you don't want to consider glancing blows that deflect off armor as misses then TN probably doesn't make much sense, but I guess my imagination has no problem viewing rolls just under TN as such.
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Post by joecrak on Jul 11, 2013 8:56:25 GMT -8
Calling raises is one of my favorite things about 7th Sea and L5R.
Though if he wants a non AC like system Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 3e sounds like something he might enjoy.
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Post by Stu Venable on Jul 11, 2013 15:26:43 GMT -8
Here is why I like the GURPS model better than the DnD model:
GURPS makes a game mechanics decision for each individual thing that goes into combat, where DnD uses one mechanic that is an abstraction of these things.
Both systems can in optimal conditions give damn near identical mathematical results. The problem is with the weird situations.
If I'm playing Fightor, who's clad in plate mail, we can assume (unless I'm 15) that I take it off when I go to sleep in my room above the tavern.
In comes the ninja to attack me!
In DnD, I'm not wearing my armor, so I just became easier to hit.
Whereas in GURPS, because I'm no longer encumbered, my dodge has gone up by one or two points. As the numbers tend to work out with the bell curve, I probably got a significant probability boost because of that couple extra points.
So unarmored, I'm harder to hit, which makes sense. But if I do get hit, I'm fucked.
You can make the argument that in DnD, since I'm easier to hit unarmored that the Ninja's damage over time increases, which can approximate the effect of not wearing armor.
The real difference is in the game play and preference.
Fightor in GURPs will be dancing around the place, dodging constantly and trying to get in that one heavy shot that will take out Mr. Ninja. It's a race against the dice until one of us finally lands a blow and the fight ends.
Fightor in DnD will fight in much the same way he normally did, but his hit point pool will drop faster, due to Mr. Ninja hitting more often. And the tension there is this: will Mr. Ninja's pool of hit points run out before mine?
I strongly prefer the GURPS model. And as I've stated before, it really has less to do with the specific dice mechanics (though that is part of it) and more to do with the size of the numbers.
It's like what Jeb said in the last podcast about Savage World, "I hit, roll damage.' "I miss." "I hit, roll damage." etc.
I don't like that kind of combat, where I feel I'm wearing down my opponent with the blade of my sword.
Getting back to L5R, what makes it forgivable to me is the fact that a) hit point pools aren't that big compared to damage rolls (and hit point pools are easily adjusted) and b) you lose combat effectiveness as you get damaged, which speeds up combat.
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D.T. Pints
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Post by D.T. Pints on Jul 11, 2013 22:12:41 GMT -8
"But Dr. Frankenstein Isn't it True?
...that you can build a 1000 point GURPS character that will have very similar TANK like abilities and be just as hard to kill as the 100 hit point Fightor?
Don't get me wrong I agree that GURPS and L5R for the most part play at a grittier, easy to die level. But, both systems do allow for some level of Waaaay over the top epic games ? At high point value/experience points.
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maxinstuff
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Post by maxinstuff on Jul 11, 2013 22:45:45 GMT -8
"But Dr. Frankenstein Isn't it True? ...that you can build a 1000 point GURPS character that will have very similar TANK like abilities and be just as hard to kill as the 100 hit point Fightor? Don't get me wrong I agree that GURPS and L5R for the most part play at a grittier, easy to die level. But, both systems do allow for some level of Waaaay over the top epic games ? At high point value/experience points. GURPS incorporates GM control over that into the system though. By not running a 1000 point game
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merryprankster
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Post by merryprankster on Jul 14, 2013 18:09:12 GMT -8
Out of Curiosity, does anyone actually know how much dodging was involved in medieval sword fighting? Either Asian or European?
I guess my problem with "to Hit" being better when unarmored is that I find it hard to swallow people actually completely dodging incoming attacks. Sure, maneuvering to deflect blows off armor and weapons seems seems plausible, but straight up dodging? Not so much (maybe on a crit success or something, but certainly not reliably).
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Post by gandalftheplaid on Jul 14, 2013 21:55:41 GMT -8
Out of Curiosity, does anyone actually know how much dodging was involved in medieval sword fighting? Either Asian or European? I would expect more block & parry but it would depend on weaponry. That said, stopping an attack takes energy and could still lead to injury. If an attack can be avoided entirely that can sometimes be the better option as the opponent may be left off balance and/or you'll fatigue less. (Assuming this isn't Star Wars and most attacks will actually be aimed such that they would strike a stationary target.) I guess my problem with "to Hit" being better when unarmored is that I find it hard to swallow people actually completely dodging incoming attacks. Keep in mind, a simple step back could be called a dodge. I expect that would be done a lot.
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