Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 30, 2012 11:02:16 GMT -8
Been thinking of the battle-mat and such. First off, I love minis. I love painting them, I like the Games Workshop Lord of the RIngs, I love Battletech all of that stuff. BUT. I will NOT have miniatures in my D&D game at Orccon. I dont like the way the focus changes from the Role-playing and it's really kind of a hassle and makes it feel more rules-heavy. I'm going to be very old-fashioned, and use graph paper. That's right. GRAPH PAPER. We will play make-believe with graph paper and a pencil. Andy PS: Oh, and no laptops, PC tablets, smart phones or texting. yeah, I feel like a crusty old man now.
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kevinr
Journeyman Douchebag
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Post by kevinr on Jan 30, 2012 17:51:43 GMT -8
Graph Paper and pencils take away from your imagination you should go hardcore and make everyone play blindfolded.
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Post by Stu Venable on Jan 30, 2012 18:20:15 GMT -8
When I started with dnd 1e we didn't use minis.
I graphed out my dungeon ahead of time and the players drew it out from my description.
Combat were done in our heads
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 31, 2012 5:05:58 GMT -8
When I started with dnd 1e we didn't use minis. I graphed out my dungeon ahead of time and the players drew it out from my description. Combat were done in our heads Sent from my LS670 using ProBoards Testify!
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azuretalon
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I poop violence!!!
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Post by azuretalon on Jan 31, 2012 5:07:26 GMT -8
Early on in our DnD careers, we didn't use minis. Mostly because we had just started and didn't have any. I had a druid build to be a ranged caster and using the "in the head" method he always got caught, ripped apart and downed pretty much every encounter until he finally died. I switched to a heavy melee class and didn't go back to a ranged character until much later out of fear. I know the original problem was just because we were young and didn't quite know how to fudge for maximum fun, but it's a micro trauma that's stuck with me even to today and made me VASTLY prefer my DnD with a battlemap and minis.
Also, and this may be simply my skewed perspective, but I feel like feats like spring attack, run, mobility, and whirlwind attack become much weaker or entirely worthless without the minis aspect.
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kevinr
Journeyman Douchebag
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Post by kevinr on Jan 31, 2012 7:27:01 GMT -8
I originally played in school and a couple years after then took a 15-20 year break. Started back up when 4e came out I never used mini's during those original years. It was not until I took the hobby back up that the mini's came into play.
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Post by ironnikki on Jan 31, 2012 8:38:42 GMT -8
When I play with my group, we don't typically play with minis. I had a small collection of minis so that we could use them in particularly tactical combat situations, but I've moved places of residences more than once a year over the past few years, and somehow, the totally secure, ironclad shoebox that they were stored in managed to disappear (I blame my gerbils, but they don't seem to care.)
The free form style of combat that we use now is nice, because it's definitely faster than using minis. I prefer to let the PC's get away with cool stuff, and it's easy to fudge combat parameters when they're not staring you in the face. I'm starting to realize that it's harder to make really interesting and cool combats without coming up with details ahead of time and sticking to them, though, so it might be time to dust off that mat again...
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Post by retrosuperhero on Jan 31, 2012 12:45:54 GMT -8
Has anyone ever tried playing WITH minis, but WITHOUT the hexes/squares? Take a normal whiteboard down on the table and put the minis on top to mark location...
This might be a good middle ground. You don't have all the square counting and "chess movements" that I've seen many players do, but you do have a sense of the space (cover, approx. distance, line of sight, etc.)
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highroad
Initiate Douchebag
has a plan
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Post by highroad on Jan 31, 2012 14:20:17 GMT -8
@retro
I remember trying something like that for a Deadlands Reloaded one-shot. I drew out the maps using the 1" scale on large sheets of paper and then used minis and a bendable ruler to calculate distances and such. Granted Savage Worlds isn't as tactically complex as D&D, but I remember it working out fairly well. I haven't done it since then, but maybe I should give it another shot. I do have a massive, magnetic whiteboard that I could put to use.
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joegun
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Preferred Game Systems: Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: Just GM'ing right now.
Currently Running: Rippers Resurrected, and Savage RIFTS!
Favorite Species of Monkey: Baboon
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Post by joegun on Jan 31, 2012 14:59:35 GMT -8
I grew up not playing with minis and that was the way I liked it. However some of my players complained that we weren't seeing eye to eye on what we were visualizing in our heads. So first it was setting up dice to roughly represent where things were. We switched to Savage Worlds and tried the mini's thing and like JIB mentioned in S7E3 it pretty much stopped almost all of the movement. I've since switched to just drawing a quick picture of the area and dropping movable icons down for the players ( we play online so this is easy with google image embed in hangouts ). So it gives the visual players a representation of where things are, but is vague enough to really allow them to still narrate combat.
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Post by daeglan on Feb 1, 2012 18:16:05 GMT -8
My experience and the reason I prefer miniatures is because often I find the GM's description of the layout during combat lacks the info I need to plan. And even if I do play 20 questions my expectation and the GMs do not see eye to eye. Who do I attack first? Where is the cover to hide behind? Where is the rough terrain that hinders movement? Can I get above my opponents? is there a bottleneck I can take advantage of?
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kevinr
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Post by kevinr on Feb 1, 2012 18:23:00 GMT -8
I could see playing Savage Worlds with a map without squares or hexes but I have not tried it yet.
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HyveMynd
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Posts: 2,273
Preferred Game Systems: PbtA, Cortex Plus, Fate, Ubiquity
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Currently Running: The Sprawl
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Post by HyveMynd on Feb 1, 2012 18:54:43 GMT -8
@ daeglan - I can see how not having a map would be annoying if you feel that the GM's description of the scene isn't detailed enough for you. Especially if you have a character with mechanics that work in a very specific way or in very specific circumstances. In that case, minis and a battle mat will clear up any ambiguities, ensure that everyone is on the same page about what and who is where, and no one feels cheated.
As I've started leaning towards more narrative heavy systems though, I am more and more willing to simply allow the players to make declarations about the scene and the location. So long as what they declare is within reason and doesn't contradict what's already been established by myself or other players, that is. So if one of my players asked "Is there a way to get above my opponents?" I would say "Sure." unless it didn't make sense for the location. They way I see it, the point of the game is to tell an awesome story together, not play a war game.
Even though I still have a hard time wrapping my brain around the Aspect system of FATE, I think that everyone should play it at least once. It's a real eye opener about how players making statements about the game world can really enhance the narrative and the fun for everyone involved.
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Post by jazzisblues on Feb 2, 2012 7:51:47 GMT -8
My experience and the reason I prefer miniatures is because often I find the GM's description of the layout during combat lacks the info I need to plan. And even if I do play 20 questions my expectation and the GMs do not see eye to eye. Who do I attack first? Where is the cover to hide behind? Where is the rough terrain that hinders movement? Can I get above my opponents? is there a bottleneck I can take advantage of? The way to solve that problem is, in my opinion, in the hands of the gm. Err first on the side of the player characters and second on driving the story forward. Put in that order on purpose because the player characters are the heroes of the story. One thing that occurred to me on the way home from the podcast the other night is that the more tactically minded the players are the more they are going to want minis which is totally fine. My experience though is that when the minis hit the table rp tends to diminish. If your experience is different that's awesome and you are more skilled or more fortunate than I. JiB
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joegun
Journeyman Douchebag
Posts: 249
Preferred Game Systems: Savage Worlds
Currently Playing: Just GM'ing right now.
Currently Running: Rippers Resurrected, and Savage RIFTS!
Favorite Species of Monkey: Baboon
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Post by joegun on Feb 2, 2012 13:02:22 GMT -8
My experience and the reason I prefer miniatures is because often I find the GM's description of the layout during combat lacks the info I need to plan. And even if I do play 20 questions my expectation and the GMs do not see eye to eye. Who do I attack first? Where is the cover to hide behind? Where is the rough terrain that hinders movement? Can I get above my opponents? is there a bottleneck I can take advantage of? The way to solve that problem is, in my opinion, in the hands of the gm. Err first on the side of the player characters and second on driving the story forward. Put in that order on purpose because the player characters are the heroes of the story. One thing that occurred to me on the way home from the podcast the other night is that the more tactically minded the players are the more they are going to want minis which is totally fine. My experience though is that when the minis hit the table rp tends to diminish. If your experience is different that's awesome and you are more skilled or more fortunate than I. JiB I agree JIB. The GM can really facilitate opening up the RP and as soon as you put down Minis it does make it very hard for people not to switch to tactics mode. We found the same thing and instead I pulled out all of the tactics part of the map ( gridlines, ect ) and just showed them a basic layout as I described it in detail. That way the tokens really only represent what I have described and allow the players to open up on narative. I specifically leave out objects in the description unless it is deemed important, allowing the players to throw stuff in... Ex: One of my Players got caught trying to sneak into his own room on the backside of a tavern. The PC tried to intimidate the tavern owner who resisted and yelled for help. I couple of burly dwarf minors came out to work him over, and he decided he was going to pick one up and throw him in a trash bin and shut the lid on him. I never said there was a trash bin, but it seemed appropriate and it spiced up the combat and provided immersion! So of course there is a trash bin. I think the hybrid method of laying it out as a rough guideline really helped my players keep the narrative style of combat, but also didn't confuse players when they had different visions of what is going on. --JoeGun out
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